Wildebeest90210
Husqvarna
AA Class
Doing some frame mods, I'm guessing an 82 Husky frame would be 4130, can anyone confirm this or tell me otherwise?
Thanks.
Thanks.
-
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Chromoly frame grade?
- Thread starter Wildebeest90210
- Start date
Husqvarna
http://www.industrialmetalsupply.com/products/chromoly-4130-dom-tubing
a quick Google search says this:
A. 4130 is a designation for a steel alloy that contains chromium and molybdenum among other elements. The exact composition range is defined in the standard SAE J404 [link is to spec at TechStreet]"Chemical Compositions of SAE Alloy Steels".
1020 is another steel alloy, but since it does not contain appreciable amounts of alloying elements other than carbon, silicon, & manganese, it is called a carbon steel, not an alloy steel, and its composition range is defined in the standard SAE J403 [link is to spec at TechStreet]"Chemical Compositions of SAE Carbon Steels".
So, to answer your question, there is no difference between "100% Chromoly" and "4130 Chromoly" except that one description refers to an industry standard and the other one is pretty much meaningless.
Toby Padfield
Automotive module supplier - Michigan
or
A. The 4130 is a code of the American Iron & Steel Institute and defines the approximate chemical composition of the steel.
The "41" denotes a low alloy steel containing nominally 1 percent chromium and 0.2 percent molybdenum (hence the nickname "chromoly"). The "30" denotes a carbon content of 0.30 percent. In addition, as normal constituents of plain carbon and low alloy steels, there will be around 0.2-0.5 percent silicon, 0.5-1.0 percent manganese, and well under 0.1 percent of each of a dozen or so other elements whose presence is unavoidable, in a few cases deliberate, and generally not harmful. The remaining 97-98 percent is iron (Fe).
There are many tens, perhaps hundreds, of different steels defined by that AISI 4-digit code system. The code does not specify any particular mechanical properties, only approximate chemical composition. For any particular grade (composition) (AISI number) of steel, the mechanical properties depend on what heat treatment has been applied, and what (if any) cold work has subsequently been done.
Bill Reynolds
consultant metallurgist
Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
And
A. The chromium content is approximately 0.8-1.1%. The carbon content is nominally 0.30% and with this relatively low carbon content the alloy is excellent from the fusion carbon content the alloy is excellent from the fusion heat treatment. The actual breakdown of 4130 alloy steel is as follows:
Carbon 0.28 - 0.33
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.7 - 0.9
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Some other facts regarding this material:
Applications
Typical applications for 4130 low alloy steel include structural use such as aircraft engine mounts and welded tubing applications.
Machinability
This alloy is readily machined by conventional methods.
Machinability is best with the alloy in the normalized and tempered condition. Although the alloy may be machined in the fully heat treated condition, machinability becomes more difficult with increasing strength (hardness) of the alloy.
Forming
Formability is best in the annealed condition for which the ductility is very good, Bend radii of 1t on annealed sheet material may be made.
Corrosion Resistance
4130 is a steel and as such is not corrosion resistant. In corrosive environment the alloy should be given a protective coating.
Welding
4130 alloy is noted for its weldability by all of the commercial methods.
Heat Treatment
Heating at 1600 °F followed by an oil quench will harden the 4130 alloy. For best results a normalizing pre-hardening heat treatment may be used at 1650 to 1700 °F followed by the 1600 °F soak and oil quench.
Forging
Forge at 2200 °F maximum down to 1750 °F.
Hot Working
4130 in the annealed condition has excellent ductility.
Thus it is usually not necessary to do hot working to form parts. If hot working is needed it can be done in the range of 2000 °F to 1500 °F.
Cold Working
Cold working by conventional methods is readily accomplished on this alloy.
Annealing
4130 (and most of the other low alloy steels) may be annealed at 1550 °F for a time long enough to allow through heating of the section size. It should then be cooled in the furnace at a rate of less than 50 °F per hour down to 900 °F, followed by air cooling from 900 °F.
Tempering
Tempering is done to restore some of the ductility that may be lost after the hardening heat treatment and quench. Alloy 4130 is tempered at between 750 °F and 1050 °F, depending upon the strength level desired. The lower the tempering temperature the greater the strength.
Other Comments
The 4130 alloy is a through hardening alloy and should not be case hardened.
If you have any other questions or comments regarding steels of any type, please leave me a message and I will try to answer you -- a bored Tool and Die / Toolmaker that has worked with many different materials and applications over the years.
Jack Demcovich
- Webster, New York
Husky John
a quick Google search says this:
A. 4130 is a designation for a steel alloy that contains chromium and molybdenum among other elements. The exact composition range is defined in the standard SAE J404 [link is to spec at TechStreet]"Chemical Compositions of SAE Alloy Steels".
1020 is another steel alloy, but since it does not contain appreciable amounts of alloying elements other than carbon, silicon, & manganese, it is called a carbon steel, not an alloy steel, and its composition range is defined in the standard SAE J403 [link is to spec at TechStreet]"Chemical Compositions of SAE Carbon Steels".
So, to answer your question, there is no difference between "100% Chromoly" and "4130 Chromoly" except that one description refers to an industry standard and the other one is pretty much meaningless.
Toby Padfield
Automotive module supplier - Michigan
or
A. The 4130 is a code of the American Iron & Steel Institute and defines the approximate chemical composition of the steel.
The "41" denotes a low alloy steel containing nominally 1 percent chromium and 0.2 percent molybdenum (hence the nickname "chromoly"). The "30" denotes a carbon content of 0.30 percent. In addition, as normal constituents of plain carbon and low alloy steels, there will be around 0.2-0.5 percent silicon, 0.5-1.0 percent manganese, and well under 0.1 percent of each of a dozen or so other elements whose presence is unavoidable, in a few cases deliberate, and generally not harmful. The remaining 97-98 percent is iron (Fe).
There are many tens, perhaps hundreds, of different steels defined by that AISI 4-digit code system. The code does not specify any particular mechanical properties, only approximate chemical composition. For any particular grade (composition) (AISI number) of steel, the mechanical properties depend on what heat treatment has been applied, and what (if any) cold work has subsequently been done.
Bill Reynolds
consultant metallurgist
Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
And
A. The chromium content is approximately 0.8-1.1%. The carbon content is nominally 0.30% and with this relatively low carbon content the alloy is excellent from the fusion carbon content the alloy is excellent from the fusion heat treatment. The actual breakdown of 4130 alloy steel is as follows:
Carbon 0.28 - 0.33
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.7 - 0.9
Molybdenum 0.15 - 0.25
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Some other facts regarding this material:
Applications
Typical applications for 4130 low alloy steel include structural use such as aircraft engine mounts and welded tubing applications.
Machinability
This alloy is readily machined by conventional methods.
Machinability is best with the alloy in the normalized and tempered condition. Although the alloy may be machined in the fully heat treated condition, machinability becomes more difficult with increasing strength (hardness) of the alloy.
Forming
Formability is best in the annealed condition for which the ductility is very good, Bend radii of 1t on annealed sheet material may be made.
Corrosion Resistance
4130 is a steel and as such is not corrosion resistant. In corrosive environment the alloy should be given a protective coating.
Welding
4130 alloy is noted for its weldability by all of the commercial methods.
Heat Treatment
Heating at 1600 °F followed by an oil quench will harden the 4130 alloy. For best results a normalizing pre-hardening heat treatment may be used at 1650 to 1700 °F followed by the 1600 °F soak and oil quench.
Forging
Forge at 2200 °F maximum down to 1750 °F.
Hot Working
4130 in the annealed condition has excellent ductility.
Thus it is usually not necessary to do hot working to form parts. If hot working is needed it can be done in the range of 2000 °F to 1500 °F.
Cold Working
Cold working by conventional methods is readily accomplished on this alloy.
Annealing
4130 (and most of the other low alloy steels) may be annealed at 1550 °F for a time long enough to allow through heating of the section size. It should then be cooled in the furnace at a rate of less than 50 °F per hour down to 900 °F, followed by air cooling from 900 °F.
Tempering
Tempering is done to restore some of the ductility that may be lost after the hardening heat treatment and quench. Alloy 4130 is tempered at between 750 °F and 1050 °F, depending upon the strength level desired. The lower the tempering temperature the greater the strength.
Other Comments
The 4130 alloy is a through hardening alloy and should not be case hardened.
If you have any other questions or comments regarding steels of any type, please leave me a message and I will try to answer you -- a bored Tool and Die / Toolmaker that has worked with many different materials and applications over the years.
Jack Demcovich
- Webster, New York
Husky John
Wildebeest90210
Husqvarna
AA Class
Thanks, I got all that but what I'd like to know is if the original '82 Husky frame was a 4130 grade. I'm moving my swing arm pivot and have ordered up some 4130 2.5mm plate but what I'd like to confirm for my welders is that the frame material is the same?
Big Timmy
Husqvarna
Pro Class
If it was built in Europe and its either a Husky or an old Maico it was likely built of "Reynolds 531 tubing". Brand name manufactured in England not too hard to get. Commonly used in quality Bicycles also. European's close equivilent to 4130 chromoly. Reynolds 531 tubing has been around since the mid 1930s and now is available in many other alloy numbers. Time to Google it. "Reynolds 531 Motorcycle tubing". Give it a try.
This is what my old Maico's were made out of.
This is what my old Maico's were made out of.
PEZBerq
Husqvarna
AA Class
It doesn't make any practical difference to welding the frame if it's 4130 or other similar grade. Depending what you are doing welding with mild steel filler wire is fine for tabs and repairing gouged tube, swing arm etc. A CrMo weld repair and full post weld heat treat is ideal but not that practical for the average person.Have had my frames repaired by frame builder using small mild steel repairs and have had zero issues. Huskys are strong and hard to break!
Tinken
Husqvarna
Pro Class
During my engineering undergrad, I certified as a welder in multiple processes. I have welded on most everything from roller coasters to aircraft. My advice to you is not to weld with the same materials, especially in aircraft, it will most likely micro fracture which may lead to failure. Always try to use one or two grades softer than the base. Motorcycle frames are not aircraft, but they both do flex and fly.
Husky250mag
Husqvarna
AA Class
Bigbill
Husqvarna
Pro Class
First the Swedes developed the chrome moly steels. I believe the Swedes were the first ones to use electric furnaces in there foundries for making steels. This is why the Swedish steels were and are such a high quality steel.
On my 82 husky conversion from a double shock to a single shock I used a MIG welder with 90k strength wire with the stargon mix gas.
I have 100k strength arc rod for my structural steel frames. I also have 90k that work hardens to 250k when it sees flex but it's not cheap. It was $300 for 10lbs 15 years ago. I get it now on eBay.
I never worked on air craft but I worked on the Disney tower of terror as one of my projects.
You ride inside my work everyday, I was a lead tech in the lab for elevator r&d. I was in charge of the test lab floor. It's one of the biggest elevator companies in the world.
On my 82 husky conversion from a double shock to a single shock I used a MIG welder with 90k strength wire with the stargon mix gas.
I have 100k strength arc rod for my structural steel frames. I also have 90k that work hardens to 250k when it sees flex but it's not cheap. It was $300 for 10lbs 15 years ago. I get it now on eBay.
I never worked on air craft but I worked on the Disney tower of terror as one of my projects.
You ride inside my work everyday, I was a lead tech in the lab for elevator r&d. I was in charge of the test lab floor. It's one of the biggest elevator companies in the world.