Cold Weather Coolant Leak

[ARH]

My '12 TE250 has been parked in the unheated garage since late Nov. due to the cold and snowy winter this year. Last year (1st winter owning this bike) was nowhere near as bad, got out every couple of weeks or so, also not as cold, no problems. Anyway I was out in the garage checking over bikes, moving them around so the tires don't sit in one spot, and noticed a small patch of fluid under my bike. It was coolant, and seemed to be dripping down from the hoses on the left side, nowhere near the filler cap on the right. There seems to be plenty of coolant in the bike. I can not figure out if it is leaking from a clamped junction or maybe that other cylindrical thing in there (thermostat?) it is just a dripping sort of leak, I don't see any obvious splits or cracks (but the lighting is bad and space was tight so it is possible I missed something) The bike was not leaking when I rode it last in Nov. I never had to add any coolant so I assume what is in there is stock. Is it possible the the cold temps froze and cracked something?

 

[duggoey]

In winter here (Central coast of NSW Australia) it gets down to zero Celsius some nights and early mornings. My 690 leaks a small amount of coolant from a metallic fitting which acts as a seal for the thermostat housing and an engine coolant hose connection point to the radiator. I guess the temperature difference between the night 0C and daytime 10-15C there is enough expansion/contraction to let some fluid though.

This can even happen on hose joints and seals. I.e. if something expands/contracts more than the surface it is mated to then you can get a leak. You might find that if you undo all of your connections, loosen and nearly remove and refit firmly it could get fixed? For me at least, once the bike got to operating temp or the season just warmed up everything stayed sealed up well. { EDIT. Or something IS broken and leaking.. As long as there is a coolant/antifreeze mix in the rads nothing should freeze and expand to the point of breaking something. Unless you are at well below zero, what temp does premix antifreeze freeze at -30C? The extreme cold you guys have been enduring the last week or so wouldnt help.}

 

[ARH]

I think it may have something to do with the temp. fluctuation, -7 (F) at night and up in the mid 30s the next day. it has been steady cold the past couple of days, no drips, so either its froze solid and will gush out this weekend when it is supposed to get above freezing or I just need to re-clamp the hoses. I get nervous when anything starts leaking from my bike.

 

[Tinken]

You guys are having quite the heat wave up there... Who needs the Bahamas when you can live in Michigan right?
We remove all thermostats from our bikes and outfit with hose kits and XF coolant. I'd swap out the oil if it has been sitting and see how it does warmed up.

 

[ARH]

You guys are having quite the heat wave up there... Who needs the Bahamas when you can live in Michigan right?
We remove all thermostats from our bikes and outfit with hose kits and XF coolant. I'd swap out the oil if it has been sitting and see how it does warmed up.

Yep, now its raining, nothing pouring out of my bike, just a couple drips today. I plan to start up all the bikes tomorrow and see if everything is ok. I changed the oil right before I parked it in Nov. not worried about that. So, what is the purpose of removing the thermostat? I thought changing the hoses was something you only needed to do if they were old or damaged (or maybe you just like another color). Should I be changing my coolant? I check the level regularly. This is my 1st liquid cooled bike so maybe I'm overlooking this... What would be the benefit of XF coolant (or is this like what brand of oil to use)?

 

[Tinken]

We remove the thermostats to increase the coolant flow. There are hose kits that allow you to do this easily. XF has a working temperature from -40°F to 375°F and guaranteed not to boil over. There is no water, so it will never corrode and never needs to be changed for the life of the motorcycle.

 

[ARH]

We remove the thermostats to increase the coolant flow. There are hose kits that allow you to do this easily. XF has a working temperature from -40°F to 375°F and guaranteed not to boil over. There is no water, so it will never corrode and never needs to be changed for the life of the motorcycle.

ok, did some research, looks like a hose kit replaces all those junctions and thermostat with 2 fancy branched hoses, under $100. less complicated, less to go wrong/leak/break, sounds good. Are there any drawbacks to this set up? do I need to do any other modifications to my bike? I have only had the "power up" stuff done, I do NOT have a power commander and still run the stock injector. Will my fan still work? I just want to make sure I won't have to do a whole bunch of other stuff because I eliminated the thermostat.

 

[Tinken]

No, not really. When I start my bike, I don't twist the throttle. I let it sit and idle for several minutes to warm up before revving it up. I know many desert racers who do this and they have thousands of hard race miles on their machines. Try to drain as much of the coolant out as possible and you can use compressed air, before putting XF coolant in. You can check it after a couple of rides to see if air pockets were filled and the coolant is low. Keep coolant level about 1/2" above the coils. After that, it will stay in the bike as long as you own it. Pressure is low while running, so low that we use zip ties to hold our radiator hoses on.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/ziptys-xf-radiator-coolant.31244/

 

[ARH]

No, not really. When I start my bike, I don't twist the throttle. I let it sit and idle for several minutes to warm up before revving it up. I know many desert racers who do this and they have thousands of hard race miles on their machines. Try to drain as much of the coolant out as possible and you can use compressed air, before putting XF coolant in. You can check it after a couple of rides to see if air pockets were filled and the coolant is low. Keep coolant level about 1/2" above the coils. After that, it will stay in the bike as long as you own it. Pressure is low while running, so low that we use zip ties to hold our radiator hoses on.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/ziptys-xf-radiator-coolant.31244/

Thanks for the great info. My TE has an enricher lever I use for cold starts, so no need to rev it, but this seems to do the same sort of thing. I ease off as soon as the bike will idle without. Should the enricher lever not be used if I eliminate the thermostat? I don't think it would start on a cold day without. Sorry about all the dumb questions, but asking and sounding stupid is better DOING something dumb and damaging my bike. Anyway, got my cold grumpy bike started, found source of leak (at clamp above thermostat) leaking stopped after bike warmed up, tightened the clamp. I think I'll swap out the hoses, XF coolant sounds perfect, especially like the "less toxic" part, need to keep my kids and pets safe. Is there anywhere else that carries XF coolant? shipping from CA to MI costs about as much as the product.

 

[Tinken]

No problem, this forum is here so that people can help each other and you are welcome to my knowledge. When you purchase, use CH10 coupon code to get 10% off any of the products in our store. Give us a call on Monday, we might be able to find a less expensive way of shipping it to you. Ask for Danny.

 

[duggoey]

Oils are another story but don't get caught up into thinking a particular brand of coolant is way better than another. If you look at the chemistry you will see plain water has one of the best energy capacities (the ability to store and transfer heat energy) of the widely available fluids, the only reason we use coolant is to increase its effective operating range, I.e from 0C to > 100C to <-30C to > 130C. Coolant has corrosion inhibitors as well. Changing coolant is only worth while for normal riders if it is worn out or a previous owner has had it filled with water or a weak mix. This could have happened to you?

In regards to removing the thermostat I personally wouldn't. Maybe in tinkens case as a racer it is worthwhile as they are having that thing revving in race condition moving all of the time. Otherwise if you aren't a pro racer or just a trail rider the thermostat regulates the temperature to a certain window. Cooler isn't necessarily better, also not having a thermostat could technically be bad in certain conditions, I.e. the coolant needs to have a specific retention time in the radiator in order for its heat to exchange with the air.

 

[Tinken]

Oils are another story but don't get caught up into thinking a particular brand of coolant is way better than another. If you look at the chemistry you will see plain water has one of the best energy capacities (the ability to store and transfer heat energy) of the widely available fluids, the only reason we use coolant is to increase its effective operating range, I.e from 0C to > 100C to <-30C to > 130C. Coolant has corrosion inhibitors as well.

This is true, pure water will move heat better than XF. Water based coolant has corrosion inhibitors because water is highly corrosive, especially when hot. These additives lessen the effectiveness of the cooling capacity of water. Still, even with all of these additives, water based coolant will still carry more heat. How much? We measured a difference of 3°C which is so small, it could have even been partial digital error. Regular coolant still contains water and therefor still will corrode your system, regardless of inhibitors. This is why you must change out the coolant on a regular basis. XF contains no water and will not corrode your system and never needs to be changed.

I.e. the coolant needs to have a specific retention time in the radiator in order for its heat to exchange with the air.

This is a myth. It would be like restricting the air flow through your radiators so that the air mass had more time to contact the core. Or slowing down the air flowing past an air cooled engine. Or slowing down the flow of oil past your bearings so that it can absorb more heat. No, the truth is you want the highest flow possible. These motorcycle engines run extremely hot and barely have the cooling capacity to keep them in a working range. There is not enough room to put a cooling system in which can regulate between specific variables of temperature like in an automobile.

This is a bit of a read, but it is commentary from a fellow CH member in his bypass project.
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/wr-thermostat-bypass.31191/

 

[ARH]

I am going to exchange my coolant for XF. Had to have a truck engine rebuilt due to overheating caused by a radiator a corrosion problem so I know what can happen when coolant goes bad. I never had to add water so I thought my bike coolant was full strength. Also for the environmental factor, I just had a puddle of it on my garage floor, what if my dog would have gotten to it!

As for eliminating the thermostat, I am still reading up on it. Looks like there are lot of reasons to eliminate it:

-My bike usually runs hot, do lots of tight trails, sand, abuse clutch. Fan runs alot.
-Simplicity, less junctions, each one a potential leak/fail point.
-Thermostat is one more thing waiting to break, is it maybe just more of the emissions crap to eliminate?
-Sounds like this modification will also make the bike run richer? (is this true?) that would be a good thing since the EFI keeps it too lean, I was told there was no way to fix this except for getting some sort of power commander.

Things that make me hesitate:

-I live in Michigan, its cold in the AM even in the summer, am I going to have to let it idle for more than 10 min.?
-I have about a 10 minute ride at 40-45mph down back roads to get to the trails, the engine runs cool at this time due to lots of airflow, not much strain. I also use my bike as basic transportation into town (way more fun and uses less gas than my truck) 35 mph speed limit but still fast enough to keep engine cool. So is this sort of riding going to be off limits if the thermostat is bypassed? I'm saving up for an additional bike that would be more of a road bike, but until then my TE250 is ridden at both ends of the spectrum.

So, anyone in a colder climate do this modification and ride their bike lightly at times as well as hot and hard?

What would happen if the engine was running too cool?

I want to be sure I'm doing right thing, and if I am changing hoses, I'll want to do the coolant at the same time.

 

[Tinken]

Ride it normally, I think you are reading into this too much. Idle for 3-5 minutes will be fine. Our shop is close to 4500 feet in elevation and it snows here, but we also run the bikes in the mountains throughout the winter, no problems.

 

[duggoey]

This is true, pure water will move heat better than XF. Water based coolant has corrosion inhibitors because water is highly corrosive, especially when hot. These additives lessen the effectiveness of the cooling capacity of water. Still, even with all of these additives, water based coolant will still carry more heat. How much? We measured a difference of 3°C which is so small, it could have even been partial digital error. Regular coolant still contains water and therefor still will corrode your system, regardless of inhibitors. This is why you must change out the coolant on a regular basis. XF contains no water and will not corrode your system and never needs to be changed.

This is a myth Is it? Why are water pumps designed to pump more coolant when the engine is revving faster? . It would be like restricting the air flow through your radiators so that the air mass had more time to contact the core. Or slowing down the air flowing past an air cooled engine. Or slowing down the flow of oil past your bearings so that it can absorb more heat. No, the truth is you want the highest flow possible. These motorcycle engines run extremely hot and barely have the cooling capacity to keep them in a working range. There is not enough room to put a cooling system in which can regulate between specific variables of temperature like in an automobile.

This is a bit of a read, but it is commentary from a fellow CH member in his bypass project.
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/wr-thermostat-bypass.31191/

You are right that coolant will flow faster without the thermostat, but I wrote that more coolant flow isn't always better, especially if you are not a racer. You need the thermostat for the times that the motor isn't at maximum operating temperature to keep the engine warm so that your carb/fuel injection settings to be effective and efficient. Particularly if ARH is in a cold winter, if ARH is trail riding at <0C than maximum coolant flow all of the time would significanty alter the "EMS's" ability to keep the engine running properly.

Guys in the north of Australia remove their thermostats becuase they pretty much never see less than 15-20C, and I think some dealers do it to before the bikes are sold. I dont know about actual flow volumes but I prefer to keep mine in even know where I live it is warmer than it is cold.

The XF coolant may stop you from boiling over if it was happening before, but that doesn't mean it is removing more heat energy, it just means that the coolant wont boil because of its different properties, the engine itself will still be at the same temperature.