Rider sag and the TE250...sump'ns different

[Kawagumby]

Hi folks,
I've now got about 5 hours on my TE250 with the suspension settings pretty much finally dialed in for my riding area - a mix of hard pack, decomposed granite with lots of ruts, stutter bumps and a lot of advanced trail-wear.

When I first started riding this bike, the suspension felt pretty rough, the back end was riding high, and wouldn't track the terrain. The front was not responding well either, with the hydraulics being out-of-sync for a balanced front-to-rear action. I have pretty much tuned the clickers to what works for me, but the bike still wouldn't do what I wanted in some turns, and it was more work than usual on tight, technical trails, as a lot of concentration was needed to keep it in line.

My intial rider sag setting was 100mm, per the book, which is close to what I have set all my Japanese bikes to, over the years (100-105mm).
I could tell that the bike was "stink-bugging" too much with that setting so I went to 110mm. The bike handled much better, and would hold a line better too - but, it still wasn't right. So I went to 115mm sag.
Even better...hmmmm...why? The spring rates seemed right on...I'm a 165 pound guy and off of jumps there was no bottoming, and the suspension travel I'm getting seems pretty good too. The valving and spring action is firm yet compliant with no spikes. My forks are set up in the triples at the second line (about 1/4 inch) which is how it was setup when I got the bike.

I read about KTM pds (no linkage) bikes and most of the suspension tuners recommend 115 to 120mm of sag for off-road bikes of that design. I began to wonder if the frame design of the 2014 TE, formerly a Husaberg pds design, might have some "residual" pds design issues that could affect the new linkage setup differently from the Japanese bikes.

So, I set a full 120mm rider sag and went riding today. Much better.

With previous settings I could not hold a line in a sweeping berm, as I'd have to continually deal with some oversteer. As noted previously, the bike required unusual concentration to ride in technical settings. Now both those issues have vanished...

Now, you might be thinking, this guy ruined the steering! Nope, it still turns very well, and there has not been a hint of push (or wash-out) even when ridden agressively on dry, slippery trails.

The static sag is 40mm a full 10mm over spec. This is the one thing I do notice (rarely) when riding on faster downhills when the rear is unloaded and hitting obstacles. In those situations, you can feel the intial rear travel being kind of "dead" when compared to less static sag settings. In all honesty, I don't have an issue with that and don't know if that equates to any kind of negative action at all.

For what it's worth..that's my experience.

 

[TROFFER88]

I think these bikes like more sag than the manual states . I have mine set at 35 /115 with 12mm of spring preload. Also the forks are shorter than CC forks and I run mine flush with the bottom of the caps .

 

[Kawagumby]

I think these bikes like more sag than the manual states . I have mine set at 35 /115 with 12mm of spring preload. Also the forks are shorter than CC forks and I run mine flush with the bottom of the caps .

Yeah, I was thinking of dropping the forks flush instead of increasing the static sag, but...dang I love the seat height where it is...somedays getting my leg over the seat just isn't as fun as it used to be....LOL.

 

[robertaccio]

remember its not these bikes per se its your personal feeling the standard linkage bike sag settings are just that standard, heck you may like 95mm with 10mm of preload and 36mm static....or like you said Troffer your good feel settings. the entire suspension package is very personal, start with the standard then play from there, I like short sag on my 2 310s because I tend to sit back more than i should the stink bug keeps me balanced with the suspension. I think with the new bike this will change , there is more space for me on the TE300. its all about what works best for you. cool stuff that these things are so good now

 

[sthomps]

I had my bike resprung for my weight, no revalve or change to the preload. I set my race sag at 105mm and the static was 30mm bang on. Forks are set second line down 10 clicks out rebound and 13 clicks out compression. Shock is set 15 and 15, 2 turns on HS. I ride tight woods, first to third gear, very rocky and rooty. Bike handles really well and doesn't mind the straight away 4th gears whoops or rocks. I love the shock on this bike as it maintains traction over the roughest terrain and you have to work hard to bottom it out. I'm sure with some tweaking it would be even better. Forks are hit and miss. Sometimes I feel like they are floating on clouds and other times they feel stiff. They are definitely stiff if you don't push them (like when you are tired near the end of a race). I was also getting front end push but just upped the compression dampening a touch and it fixed that problem.

 

[Vinduro]

I have come up with a formula that I use for setting the suspension up on my bikes. This info was collected the past few years from several different tuners and applied. I have broken this down into a formula using percentages of available travel so this will work on most any bike. (KTM PDS is slightly different but close). I thought I would share this knowledge with you.
Your shock spring preload should be less than 10mm on linkage suspension but not less than 5mm. You don't want to over preload a weak spring as you will just get a harsh ride that still will allow hard bottoming. I usually shoot for about 5mm preload on fork springs. If you have the right spring.
You can figure your correct sag numbers by using percentages. That way you can get the correct springs for you and your bike. Base these percentages on the available travel front and rear with a variance of + - 3 mm.
Front suspension static sag should be 14% ( available travel in mm X .14 = static sag in mm)
Front suspension rider sag should be 25% (X .25 = Rider sag)
Rear suspension static sag should be 11% of available travel (X .11 = static sag)
Rear suspension rider sag should be 34% of available travel (X .34 = rider sag)
Using these principles you can figure the correct sags for any bike and thus the correct springs without guessing and compromising.
Once you get the springs set correct you can get the forks and shock revalved if need be. I usually like to take 20-25% of the high speed compression out with the correct spring rates.
I usually leave rebound stock or change according to the replacement springs. I usually will change rebound one click per .2 kg. on rear shock. If I go up on spring rate say from a 5kg to a 5.8kg , I will go in 4 clicks. That is a good place to start. After setting rebound and spring sags (and getting correct spring rate installed). I find a G out or a ditch that I can jump into and expect to bottom front and rear at same time. I will back off compression till I am bottom softly front and rear. NOT DRIVING FOOTPEGS THROUGH YOUR FEET OR METAL TO METAL BOTTOMING.. Just bottoming softly. Then I go back in about 2 clicks to compensate for heated suspension. I then will ride extensively to see if I need to go in or out slightly to fine tune. Damping I find is a very personal thing it you take the time to dial it in. I like a plush and compliant suspension but not wallowy. Many times lately I find that I have to go down on fork springs and up on shock spring rates. I weigh 180-185lbs and ride a 2011 WR150. It came with .42kg fork springs. That is what my KTM 525 / 530 had in the front forks. For sure there is a big difference in weights. I tried .44kg on my 525 and the bike would not turn. The bike should settle into the corner front and rear when turning. My bike would not settle. The forks were way off static and rider sag. I was on the cusp whether to go to a .38kg or .40kg. If I were 10lbs lighter I could have used a .38kg. But as it stands the .40kg allowed my sag numbers to work perfectly. 40mm static and 75mm rider. I had Hall's Cycles take out 20% of my compression on front. I am using 5wt Maxima Racing fluid. I am 10 clicks in from full out. My WR150 came with a 5kg on the rear. When I had the correct rider sag , I had NO STATIC SAG. I kept going up on my spring rate till I was at 6kg. A huge difference. A full Kg or 5 sizes heavier spring. But I had to do this to get the needed 30mm static sag with 101mm rider sag. With the correct sag rates the bike is not nearly as tall feeling. Much easier to throw a leg across. Turns perfectly and is very stable on straights. I had Hall's Cycles take 25% of my compression out of the rear shock. I am very happy with the results. Use the formula and you can get the perfect spring rates for you and your bike. Don't ride the bike till you are satisfied you have the correct spring rates as most shops will exchange unused springs for different rates. If you ride with them they will look used and can't be sold as new. I think you will be very happy with the results if you don't compromise.

 

[robertaccio]

Thanks for checking in Dwight
Additional-Vinduros formula is what I applied to both my 2011 TE310 and 2013 TXC310R. It is a solid bike balance formula.
I will test his percentage numbers when I get the TE300 set properly by a local Race Tech R&D tech.

PS The Race Tech on line spring rate calculator is what I used to calculate my spring rates for my X-Lites (but there is not a heavy enough rear spring listed from the calculator), the springs sounded way oversprung to me..(.48F and 6.4R...but when I installed them my Vinduro % of travel and sag specs came in exactly. So in my opinion/experience if you use the Race Tech spring rate calculator you should hit Vinduros formula number right near the mark. Oh yea and not only me but all my crew raved about my suspension packages on the 310s- with the open chamber TE forks getting the nod for our local rocky trails.

 

[bowser]

interesting using the formula above my sag should be 112mm and 36mm. Currently running 105mm in gear and 30mm. Will try the calculated sags and report back.
thanks for the informative post Vinduro

 

[Deondr650]

Hello guys I just purchased a 2011 te 250. I'm 5-5 with a 28 inseam and weigh 160 lbs with gear. The bike came with a 1 inch kouba link and the forks pushed two inches in the clamps. My question is how does the kouba link affect the before mentioned sag formulas ? Also what is the difference between static sag and rider sag ? Thanks in advance. I was able to get 2.5 inches out of my seat . My butt will not be soo happy

 

[Deondr650]

 

[Chums]

I have ended up at 105 sag and .5mm down on forks ( half way between flush and first line) and it is much more stable in corners vs recommend manual setting. Have the suspension done drastically improved the cornering as well.