All 2st 2 Stroke Oil

Rob578 · Sep 30, 2010

tommie d;123184 said:

Give hammer an AAAA+++++

Yep, he gets an A+

I have a new 5g jug of C-12, I'm going to try 30:1 this weekend and see what happenns.

I think one of the problems with the WR300 is that it has no thermostat, I have the water temp sensor in the outlet of the right radiator where the water flows back into the head and no matter how hot it is it rarely goes past 175 degrees, I did manage to get it to 230 last weekend in some gnarly clutch slipping single track. I think the motor runs too cool. I noticed the '11's have a thermostat. Wonder if a retrofit might be possible.........

pvduke · Sep 30, 2010

hammer;123150 said:

Here is something to think about
Spooge...
Any of you that believe that spooge is caused by too much oil in the mix are flat out wrong. If you know how to jet, you can run any amount of oil you choose, and have absolutely zero spooge.

Looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded and hard-headed on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.

There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. And there is also a very common belief that spooge is caused by too much oil in the fuel mix. Both are wrong. The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil. And spooge is caused by rich jetting.

When an engine is jetted too rich, the excess fuel leeches heat from the combustion process, causing the combustion chamber temperatures to be too low to effectively burn the oil, or even completely burn all of the fuel. The result is spooge and deposits. The spooge is nothing more than unburned fuel and oil passing out the exhaust.

If you have a spooge problem, you have a jetting problem. You don't get rid of the spooge by reducing the oil, you get rid of it by fixing the jetting. Correct jetting will produce an air/fuel ratio of about 14:1, which will produce combustion temperatures in the 1200 degree range. This will provide sufficient heat to consume the premix oil.

You don't choose a mix ratio based on "spooge", you choose the ratio based on the amount of oil your engine needs to provide sufficient protection and adequate ring seal. The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be frther from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.

The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.

With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.

To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around by the spinning crankshaft, and being distributed through the engine by the air currents moving through the crankcase. The main bearings are lubed by some of this oil dripping down through tiny "drip passages" in the cases above the bearing pockets.

People believe that the oil just rushes right through a two-stroke along with the fuel, but that just isn't so. It can take 90 minutes or more for the oil migration through a two-stroke to result in a complete oil exchange.

The oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.

With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.

One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.

Now we come to the issue of ring seal. Simply put, the rings alone can not effectively seal the cylinder. They also need oil to provide a complete seal against the bore surface. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.

I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.

spooge- means yer muffler packing is saturated and needs replacement. if you try and judge your jetting or oil mix ratio by this you are looking at the wrong end people! spooge has nothing to do with anything other than it is what it is and is part of the process of a two-cyle engine, how it works and a lot of other factors- no two of which are alike!

never adjust a state of tune by the amount of spooge coming from your tail pipe. EVER!!!
how wrong is that????!!!

read the plug, instead. not the muffler!

oil- use the correct ratio as specified by the maker of said oil. most oils work on a pretty broad range of ratios, some do not!

it is up to the opperator to jet his bike for the given conditions. there is no one magic ratio for all oils or all bikes. i've used Amsoil at 95:1 w/o any issues on some overnight death-march rides where i never saw 4th gear for hours. A LOT. not one issue either.

the oil's primary function is to lube the crankshaft. so get it right and it dont take lot.
the fuel also lubes the the piston, a LOT. way more than you think! oil is WAY over-rated. Want proof?
i've built stand-mules (engines) that use WATER to lubricate them- not one drop of oil. and they ran and ran and ran for hours on a stand. guess what- keep the crankcase full of cold water and it'll go and go. and itll never sludge up! the main reason oil is used is for corrosion protection and it dont cook off under heat like water can. all you need is a viscous liquid in a 4-stroke of any type to prove this, as your crank/bearings are protected by the fact it is imcompressable. not because it's slippery. but i digress....

using evan a little too much oil in a two-cycle causes carbon and varnish. same will cause a two-cyle engine to peter out WAY faster than accelerated wear from normal oil/fuel ratios. using a lot causes big problems and even seizures!

burning ANY oil causes ash, carbon and varnish. burn as little of it as you can while striking a balance. gasoline today burns butt-clean, almost zero carbon with the correct stoichiometric ratio and................ produces 1/10,000,000,000 the carbon ANY oil does.

the more oil causes a better seal thigny/more power? wrong. dyno's dont prove jack when the jetting is wrong either. and, it aint even close to riding conditions. in fact- more oil = more parasitic drag = LESS power. the need for higher oil/gas ratios are for WFO racing only, like road racing, and, todays hi-tech oils are light years ahead of the junk we used to HAVE to run.

burning more FUEL at the correct stoichiometric ratio produces WAY more power than any OIL will. why? higher pre-detonation energy yeild/density ratio per gallon. burning more oil creates pollution and deposits (coked pies, ex ports and valves, piston crowns, stuck rings, carbon scoring in clyinders). not power.

the engine is a gasoline engine, not an oiloline engine.

if you run a "residule" "puddle" of any consequense in the crank case the engine will die or hydrolock when you whack it open. period. end of story there. the residue you see on teardown is just that, residue! the internals are lubed by a "fog" or mist, not by splash from standing oil from a sump.

i respectfully and humbly disagree w/ most of hammer's post (sorry man!) & with the more oil is better theory because that's what it is, a theory, not fact, esp when trail riding and for 99% of given normal useage.......... and i aint the only one nor the final word on this.

sorry guys and take some xtra plugs on the trail if ya wanna go oil-rich!

robertaccio · Sep 30, 2010

use MC oil why reinvent the wheel. All the r&d is done and all the major brands are good.

Troy F Collins · Sep 30, 2010

more oil migration info...for those whom are interested

http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php

water racer · Sep 30, 2010

Motul 710, used the 800 in the race boats where we ran mostly wide open for 30 - 50 laps at a time. 710 seems to work fine in the bikes.
Ratios can be misleading depending on the thickness of the oil, Motul 800 is very thick, some other brands seem pretty diluted.
GP

Rob578 · Oct 1, 2010

From Motuls website

800 2T premix Ratio :
For off road applications, we recommend to use Motul 800 2T Factory Line OFF ROAD in premix at 2% (50:1).
For road racing applications, we recommend to use 800 2T Factory Line ROAD RACING in premix at 3,33% (30:1).

pvduke · Oct 1, 2010

http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php

Of the remaining oil in the engine after it is stopped,

Many lubricant producers recommend the same gas/oil ratio for all types of riding and racing. Maxima feels this approach is too general, and urges motorcycle owners to make their decisions based on the above research.
All of the above measurements are approximations, and should not be considered 100% accurate. They are meant to provide the browser with a basic understanding of two-cycle engine lubrication characteristics.

BTW- I use Motul 710 2T, 50:1 in my 125 and i beat on it w/ Thor's hammer.

Dirtdame · Oct 1, 2010

pvduke;123566 said:

BTW- I use Motul 710 2T, 50:1 in my 125 and i beat on it w/ Thor's hammer.

Modern synthetics.

pvduke · Oct 1, 2010

red sticker season's up, i'm comin' down fer them beers ya owe me soon, shuger.

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