2012 TE449 Clutch Issues

[Rearwheelin]

I rode today and didn't notice anything wrong .... It's just a different bike that what most are use too

 

[blakeNY9]

I have a 2009 TE310 (with 800 miles, new to me) and am also experiencing this same issue. The clutch is dragging, the bike will want to surge forward when trying to start the bike in gear with the clutch in. My clutch lever is adjusted all the way in (the little red knob). The bike also sometimes stalls when I shift into 1st from neutral with the clutch in at a stand still. I attribute that to the dragging. To confirm this, I put the bike up on the stand, started it in neutral, with clutch in, I shift into 1st and the rear wheel starts spinning even though the clutch is pulled in. Also started the bike in 1st with clutch in and confirmed the rear wheel turns.

Has anyone been able to figure out what the cause is? I'll admit I am not terribly knowledge on the internal workings of the clutch. I have read that there are some springs in there that can wear out and need to be replaced with a stiffer spring...????

-bh

 

[eastrider]

I just let it wam up more after 10 min of riding problem go away i use amsoil 10w40 some people say it too light but up hir it cold and 90% my riding is 20 c below

 

[MckayThompson]

Hello All,
I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to see if anyone had figured out what the deal was. I noticed my bike getting tougher to shift and neutral is not an option with the bike running. I just recently hit the 400 mile mark and have changed the oil and filter, hoping that it would help, but it seems to have made it worse.

Thanks

 

[Tinken]

I wonder if it's caused by lack of oil circulation at the clutch or because the clutch spins faster due to it being crank mounted and gets less lube.... With mine in gear and clutch pulled in the bike will try to lunge when I rev it in gear.... I try to just hit neutral before a stop , my 2012 511 has no starting issues in gear.

The primary function of the oil in your engine is as a coolant, lubrication 2nd.

My clutch has never dragged since I started using 0w-40 and the engine noise and vibration has greatly reduced since I started running over 1150cc of oil which was originally recommended by BMW. The 449/511 has an extremely high speed clutch and it is considerably smaller than a secondary shaft clutch. It gets extremely hot and I have no doubt that it warps plates if it lacks enough oil to keep it cool. I see many riders have been using higher and higher viscosity with less oil than what was originally recommended. Something will fail eventually.

 

[djdougiedoug]

The clutch on my SMR511 is not the best. Can't find neutral until it run for at least 10 minutes and gear change is very clunky, you can feel the cogs/selector engaging through the gear lever.
Advised dealer at it's last service and they said its a trait of this bike that they are noisy and not that smooth.
Bikes done coming up for its 3000mile service so it's nothing to do with bedding in

 

[Rearwheelin]

Must say today I have no issues with my clutch today. I think the oil blend I am using helped a bunch.

 

[Rearwheelin]

The primary function of the oil in your engine is as a coolant, lubrication 2nd.

I thought the primary function of oil was to eliminate friction hence lowering heat generated by the piston/rings/tranny/clutch and all bearings ? Your engine cases do the job of drawwing out the heat in the oil.... A good example are the bearings in the axle of my trailer, they never get hot, warm but not hot because the axle transfers the heat away from the bearing threw the grease..... A caterpillar diesel engine can deliver over 2600 foot pounds . That's a lot of force on bearings day in and day out running 2,000,000 miles in the life of the motor and 15/40 does the job. In the case of a turbo charger the oil is the coolant first then lube.... I agree that the flowing oil in the engine cooles the engine parts but you must have good lube to keep them from wearing out and oil that stays in contact with parts long enouph to transfer heat out of them. As long as the engine has well placed oilers shouldn't be a problem with what you run as long as you stick with it. It's a trade off, the piston might like 0-40w but the cam likes 10-50.or the tranny prefers 20-60........ Can't win them all when it comes to the kind of oil we run in our bikes.

 

[Tinken]

I thought the primary function of oil was to eliminate friction hence lowering heat generated by the piston/rings/tranny/clutch and all bearings ? Your engine cases do the job of drawwing out the heat in the oil....

This was actually quoted from Dr. Haas’s article in chapter four and was part from The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), I do apologize for not properly citing. There is a problem with the Kymco cases in regards to heat conduction, but that is another topic all together.

In an earlier section I said that thicker oils are usually needed in racing situations but not necessarily. Remember that a major function of oil is to cool the inside of your engine. In ASTM D 4485 3.1.4: “Terminology: Engine oil- a liquid that reduces friction and wear between moving parts within an engine, and also serves as a coolant.” Since the oil with a viscosity of 10 cS at 212 F thins to a viscosity of 3 cS at 302 F we will get more flow. The pressure will go down some as well. This is OK as long as we have a minimum of pressure to move the oil.

Link to Dr.Haas Ch. 4

I agree that the flowing oil in the engine cooles the engine parts but you must have good lube to keep them from wearing out and oil that stays in contact with parts long enouph to transfer heat out of them

The higher the flow, the higher the cooling, the higher the lubrication. This is why when the Ferrari formula one team went from SAE 10 grade oil to SAE 5. SAE 5 flows much better than 10 and the engine temperature dropped. Now, we can’t just trade our 40 grade for 30 in our Kymco engines (although that’s exactly what I did in my racing KTM’s, but I did oil pressure testing) because our pressure would drop to the point at which our flow would suffer.

. As long as the engine has well placed oilers shouldn't be a problem with what you run as long as you stick with it. It's a trade off, the piston might like 0-40w but the cam likes 10-50.or the tranny prefers 20-60........ Can't win them all when it comes to the kind of oil we run in our bikes.

Well, lets look at the facts here. The Kymco 449/511 engine requires a viscosity thickness of 13.3cSt @100°C in order to form the proper oil layer thickness on all internal parts. All 40 grade oils are not equal, the same is true with 50 and 60 grade oils as well. But generally speaking, most 40 grade oils are about 13cSt@100°C, 50 grade oils are about 18cSt@100°C and 60 grade oils are 24cSt@100°C. There’s not a huge difference in flow between what is recommended and the average 50 grade oil @100°C, but the 50 will flow less and the 60 is almost twice as thick @100°C, hence the flow will be half as much. If heavier grade oil is used in the Kymco engine, cooling will be reduced proportionately.

With that said, my point about the clutches dragging was that most of the riders that I have seen with clutch problems were not using the recommended oil thicknesses. This might be causing an internal cooling issue which could be causing the clutch plates to warp and drag. I have seen other issues that stemmed from over heated oil, such as the torque limiter failure. Or it may be as simple as not being thin enough to provide adequate functionality to the clutch until the oil has been warmed and allowed to thin.

I have the 511 same issue... struggles to start in gear with clutch pulled in... using motul 7100 10w-60... around 820kms

 

[Rearwheelin]

This was actually quoted from Dr. Haas’s article in chapter four and was part from The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), I do apologize for not properly citing. There is a problem with the Kymco cases in regards to heat conduction, but that is another topic all together.



Link to Dr.Haas Ch. 4



The higher the flow, the higher the cooling, the higher the lubrication. This is why when the Ferrari formula one team went from SAE 10 grade oil to SAE 5. SAE 5 flows much better than 10 and the engine temperature dropped. Now, we can’t just trade our 40 grade for 30 in our Kymco engines (although that’s exactly what I did in my racing KTM’s, but I did oil pressure testing) because our pressure would drop to the point at which our flow would suffer.



Well, lets look at the facts here. The Kymco 449/511 engine requires a viscosity thickness of 13.3cSt @100°C in order to form the proper oil layer thickness on all internal parts. All 40 grade oils are not equal, the same is true with 50 and 60 grade oils as well. But generally speaking, most 40 grade oils are about 13cSt@100°C, 50 grade oils are about 18cSt@100°C and 60 grade oils are 24cSt@100°C. There’s not a huge difference in flow between what is recommended and the average 50 grade oil @100°C, but the 50 will flow less and the 60 is almost twice as thick @100°C, hence the flow will be half as much. If heavier grade oil is used in the Kymco engine, cooling will be reduced proportionately.

With that said, my point about the clutches dragging was that most of the riders that I have seen with clutch problems were not using the recommended oil thicknesses. This might be causing an internal cooling issue which could be causing the clutch plates to warp and drag. I have seen other issues that stemmed from over heated oil, such as the torque limiter failure. Or it may be as simple as not being thin enough to provide adequate functionality to the clutch until the oil has been warmed and allowed to thin.

I hate my bike there are too many engineering flaws. I don't have time to re-engineer a bike that has been re-engineered. I don't trust 0w oil. I can't help but to be shocked if I don't do certain things to my bike it will let me down. Everything I thought I knew about taking care of good machinery has left me for my higher power. Good luck with your bike issues. I will be back when I have questions about mine. ... lol

 

[Tinken]

I don't think there are any flaws in your engine? But I do believe in using the manufactures recommendation for oil viscosity. Castrol Power 1 4T 10w-40 (Formerly Castrol Power 1 GPS 4T 10w-40)

 

[JBs900]

Threads getting pretty old but thought I'd share my recent experience.

I dropped my bike last weekend going over a greasy log. Branch hit the clutch cable and loosened the bolt which attaches the clutch cable to the piston. Result = no clutch.

Got the bike home stopped the leak and back bled the clutch to get all air out and restore pressure. Clutch lever pressure seemed normal but clutch was dragging worse than it ever had. Bike would try and lunge forward
when trying to start in gear with the lever pulled in, and almost impossible to find neutral when running.

Back bled another time to ensure all air was out. Same issue. With the clutch fully pulled in the bike would start to move if reved in 1st.

Took it to the workshop. They bled the clutch again but problem persisted.
They took the clutch out and inspected it. All seemed fine. Put the bike back together but still no good.
Its got the recommended oil in both the bike and clutch.
Workshop spoke to husky importer in Australia who were fairly useless and gave them a few basic things to try.

Workshop is out of ideas so Im in the process of taking it back to where I bought it. Labor costs are adding up


Clutch has always dragged a little since new but nothing to be concerned about until now.
Bikes got 1500kms on it.

 

[Tinken]

That clutch is nearly bullet proof. But it does tend to drag with the thicker oils. In most cases, the use of Mobil 1 0W40 has cured most drag problems associated with the 449 engine. I would also think about changing out your clutch fluid to a mineral oil based fluid.

 

[JBs900]

That clutch is nearly bullet proof. But it does tend to drag with the thicker oils. In most cases, the use of Mobil 1 0W40 has cured most drag problems associated with the 449 engine. I would also think about changing out your clutch fluid to a mineral oil based fluid.

Cheers Tinken. The bikes been running on Motul 7100 10w60 full syth without issues up until now. Maybe I will try the 10w40 before I take it somewhere else. Clutch is a Brembo which runs DOT4.

 

[Tinken]

Yes sir, 10W60 is instant clutch drag in the 449. It's 0W40, ZeroW40 If you cannot find a zero weight, look around for 5W40s.

 

[JBs900]

Will give it a go tonight and see if it helps. Odd that its been fine on the 10w60 up until I lost the pressure in the clutch cable though. Its almost as if there isn't enough pressure being applied from the full travel of the clutch lever.

 

[philfy20]

I have had the issue with my 511 struggling to get the bike into neutral. Over time it has got better and using mobile 1 oil that tinken suggests it has got even better. I find that now it is only hard to get into neutral when the bike has just been started up.

 

[Tinken]

That clutch is nearly bullet proof. But it does tend to drag with the thicker oils. In most cases, the use of Mobil 1 0W40 has cured most drag problems associated with the 449 engine. I would also think about changing out your clutch fluid to a mineral oil based fluid.

My retraction; do not use mineral oil in a Brembo clutch. Mineral oil deteriorates the plunger. Use Dot 4 or 5.1.