FE/FC 4cs Puzzle Solved

Agreed!
I didn't want to go to someone new but it unfortunately needed to happen.
This time around I didn't get into the problems with 4cs, I just said to the tuner who had come highly recommend "can you fix these" he gave the correct answer & away we went.
I didn't want to get into the problems with my setup as he was already well aware of the 4cs issues & he's the expert so I just left it to him.
To be honest I think the difference this time around was that there was no input from myself & no personal connection with the tuner.
All the setup specs came straight from the testing bench at K-Tech, even the clicker settings where listed & the tuner is under strict instructions to follow the worksheet to the letter so there's no place for the rider to influence the setup with uneducated input or the tuner stuffing things up by trying his latest & greatest idea that came to him in a dream.

It blows me away that KTM and now KTM/Husky has consistently finished last in every bike shootout in the suspension category. Most agree suspension is the most important part of the set up that allows a rider to ride to his or her full potential. First the PDS crap and now the 4cs debacle.

Read this link http://racerxonline.com/2015/11/13/bikes-stolen-at-ironman-gncc and notice in the description that the pros don't mess with the 4cs yet they are still pushing it on the consumer.

News flash! 4CS is cheap to produce. Cheaper than CC forks so it's all about the almighty $

Maybe so but their bikes aren't cheap. Maybe they could offer a bike without suspension for about 4k and we could buy are own Ohlins.

ZipTy does them for around $300..... and Factory connection mine was $600..... and any revalve the forks have to completely apart....

I personally will take a few hundred dollar revalve over PDS any day

Ohlin inserts are 2 grand.... just buy a pair of Ohlins, and transfer to new bike when you sell....

I have to agree... no personal connection.... just go straight off their sheet and knowledge....

BTW those werent "Pros" bikes.... at one time they were Pros bikes but they were sold to local fast guys and who are in the same club as the local "Ohlins" dealer... thats why they all have Ohlins on them

Check the results and see how Jason Yount did and who he finished in front of, he's not slow. My point is the fast guys aren't using 4cs.

Well KTM won't be abandoning the 4CS, IMO, on the following grounds:
1. Investment made in tooling and production plant by KTM/WP on these forks and now in their 4th (or is it 5th) year of production.
2. They are cheaper to manufacturer and in their rationale, parts 'should' be cheaper.
3. These forks are actually lighter than their previous forks.
4. They actually do work

And this is their mindset if the following interview is to be believed (Thanks to Transmoto Aust magazine):
Mike Sleeter has been involved with KTM’s future-model testing program for a decade now, so we sat down with the likeable American Pro rider at KTM’s recent media launch for the 2016 models in the USA to get a first-hand insight into the brand’s real-world testing and development process.
Fitting the WP 4CS fork last year for the American and Australian bikes was not that well received. What’s your take on that?
We thought WP’s twin-chamber fork was a good thing and still getting better, but it seemed the American market wanted a change as that fork had been used for so long. More specifically, the media over here wrote it off. As a group, we didn’t necessarily agree with that, so the change to the 4CS last year was initially more about pleasing the market. We’ve worked really hard on developing the 4CS fork and made some big steps forward, and I now believe we made the right decision in moving to the 4CS.
The 4CS fork across all models does feel noticeably softer this year.
Our feedback last year was that the 4CS fork’s mid-stroke was a little harsh and that it deflected too much in some situations. And the settings we’ve used this year definitely improve on that a lot. Our philosophy is that the faster guys are going to get their suspension re-valved anyway, but we wanted the average guy’s first experience with the bike to be a positive, comfortable one.

So l blame you Yanks for keeping the 4CS alive

All honestly, agreed with the OP in that if you find a suspension guy who takes the time to understand your needs, actually understands the 4CS, you'll come out with a fork that works. My tuner works on that basis with the pretense that you cannot have a do all fork i.e. forks that works in the bush but want to work on an MX doing 20ft jumps - two different disciplines that require two different setup. Also, the rear shock is a big player in the equation and if you don't balance the bike right, it doesn't matter matter how many $$$ is spent on the fork if the rear shock starts to overheat and lock up as well?

If your mindset is already influenced that they are a crap fork, then no amount of tuning is probably going to change that unfortunately and probably better of making a deal with your dealer on swapping the forks with SX CC or OC forks. I totally agree that KTM R&D team failed in terms of releasing a fork for mass consumption that wasn't up to spec in comparison to their OC or CC forks but unfortunately for us consumers, being market leader allows them the abuse to release a piece of equipment that kinda works but we'll let the consumer doing the testing as it won't hurt our sales

PS. Don't take notice of what the factory guys use...95% of the bike doesn't have production parts on it so pinning 'even such and such racer/team' doesn't use OE equipment is irrelevent IMO...better looking at the lower classes and see what they run...the punters who actually have to pay for things.

I know Jason.... and brian temple.... lol live less than 30 minutes from them

the factory pros dont even use 4CS.. they all use the WP cone valve works a kit forks, 4CS is a consumer fork. The WP guys were bummed when I told them that I had reconfigured my 4CS because they(he) mentioned that they were the team that helped develope them......

Mike Sleeter is paid test rider from KTM for many years his bread and butter to feed his kids depends on this......you really think Sleet Dog will slag his master? bite the hand that feeds him? He has been a part of thel process as well.
even Pro Circuit does the reconfigure mod due to their (Bones) assessment that no unt of tuning can get the fluid to flow through one valve at a time in the amount needed to properly dampen.

But what ever if you have them revalved modded whatever and are happy more power to you, its all personal need and preference anyway.

All I can say is that I wasn't biased or influenced by what I read on the internet. I got this bike coz I like the dealer here. I got my '10 TE450 from him and he takes good care of me.
I got this one as I like the smoothness of the engine and I got it at a good price. I loved the bike to bits but as an experienced road rider but fairly new to off road I didn't gel with the bike for some reason.
At one stage I thought it wasn't for me and was willing to get rid of it.
I talked to people who know what they're doing and I always blamed me for not knowing how to ride it. I'm open to suggestions from people who have more off road experience and talk no BS!
I have been riding road bikes for +35 years and I live, breath and fix bikes but I'm also the first to admit I have a lot to learn.

I followed the manual and professional advice on sag, clickers and so on. No matter what I did, the bike didn't want to turn in and always bounced harsh in the back and felt funny in the front.
Threw me off a few times and I also broke my collar bone, probably due to this.
The first improvement came from converting the forks to both compression at the bottom and rebound at the top together with a revalve. What a difference that made!!!
When I mailed the stuff away to suspension matters after that to do the whole lot it was the best decision I made and the greatest improvement on the bike.
I rode through stuff last week where most people would not consider walking. I'm not a professional, far from, but this is how this bike should have been from the factory!

It doesn't matter if you're convinced out of the box 4CS is good, my experience says it's not! Go and ride a well sorted bike and we'll talk again!
However it can be made to work properly, but just not with a simple revalve.

I sent my forks and shock off from Perth to Dave. I have a 2016 TE 300 and got the full Kreft setup. Couldn't be happier. I had a mate of a mate in Sydney do the full Kreft/MX tech Huck valve setup on my 2015 KTM 350 6 day and it was night and day difference .
Whilst the outlay for the latest Kreft setup isn't cheap its a permanent fix for any bike with 4CS forks. It is important to get the front and rear working together, once thats done these bikes are confidence inspiring

This is my big issue with the 4CS, who was it made for? Who would be happy with it? I totally understand if I buy a supercross bike and want to ride in 8 mph rock infested trails it will need some modifications. But a KTM XC? A Husqvarna TE? You can't race them in rocks and roots? Huh?

My conclusion is the stock 4CS fork is good for slow to medium speeds in grass fields with no jumps.

And they do need more than a revalve, more of a restructure. Very painful to spend so much money on a bike and then need to spend so much money and time to get the suspension to not be dangerous.

I wrote to KTM about the forks, never got a response from them. I know that was silly, but figured we should communicate directly with them so they understand how dissatisfied we are with them.

And as far as my bad attitude , I bought my bike before reading any 4CS stories anywhere. My first rock run was a very scary event, being deflected off line all day long. I have been working with a local-ish suspension tuner and even after spending $750 we still don't have them anywhere near as good as my 2011 CC fork was. Oh well, more time, more money.

The thought that a re-valve is a must for every bike is BS. Yamaha has been making forks since 2006 that are excellent for nearly everyone. Yes if you want to improve them you can but out of the crate they are pretty darn good and adjustable enough to be set up correctly with the clickers after a spring change without requiring a re-valve. KTM did had some good forks and the PDS could be made excellent for specific situations but never as forgiving as a linkage system... It's pretty bad when KTMs new suspension R&D is making the bikes worse. I think like the air forks they must be cheaper to make thus more profit. Getting the new bikes to weigh less seems to be a driving factor to sales at the expense of a good working bike. I expect that all the really fast guys have their own preferred suspension that they migrate from bike to bike or at least the internal parts of the forks are what they prefer. I've tried many times over the past 5 years to talk myself into a KTM/Husky but I just can't do it because of suspension and cost. I'm seriously looking at buying another Yamaha to add to my collection which is 09 WR250 Husky woods weapon, 08 YZ125 fully tricked out for the woods and still the best 125 out there, a 2011 YZ450 set up for MX (my son's ride).

Yep I also think it (4CS) was all about cost cutting and sure was a step in the wrong direction. Like anything made you can always cut cost but at the expense of what? You can cut the cost on the making of a anvil but that doesn't mean you will end up with a good one.