Ignition problem, intermittent, iBeat logs of good and bad runs

Not sure if this is included in the logs or not, my ECU version reports E010R103 with a date of 08/11/07, very early.

My engine number is listed correctly in the ECU but the hours are way off. It is incrementing however, as yesterday it reported 78 hrs. today 79 hrs. I have 212 on the dash.

The hours don't coincide with the power up kit install either. I installed the kit at 38 hrs, so it should read ~174 hrs. if this was the case.

If the fuel pump stops pumping, could the pressure drop quickly enough to cause the injector to drop to zero pulse width?

Others have had pumps that would not start spinning, but a bump would cause it to start again. FWIW, my pump has never failed to prime.

Brett,

We've studied your logs with interest and in our opinion the problem is related to the TPS circuit. Either the TPS itself is faulty, the wiring to it or there is an issue in the ECU related to it.

Every time the injector pulse disappears or reappears this is proceeded by a change in the throttle position reading, so I think the ECU is seeing the change in the TPS reading and controlling the injector accordingly rather than the injector being at fault.

If you click and drag on the Ibeat graph you can expand the selected area to fill the graph and then view the 'event' in more detail. By doing this you'll see it's always the TPS that changes first.

Unfortunately the TPS is integral to the throttle body so if this is the fault then it's a complete throttle body that will need replacing. The best course of action now would be to substitute an ECU if you can just to eliminate the possibility its an internal fault on that, then thoroughly inspect the wiring and block connectors. If all that checks out then it's time to try the throttle body...

Hope this helps!

Dave

Dave,

Thank you much, I was studying the logs last night and saw the relationship between throttle position and injector pulse as well. I will work to find a ECU to swap and go from there...

Brett

Isn't data logging wonderful.

Brett,

Are you really chopping the throttle to zero as quickly and the data shows? It looks like to TPS starts to slope down and then suddenly drops to zero. It's a little hard to tell if the manifold pressure is as expected for the throttle/rpm values.

Does the TPS signal respond smoothly from 0 to 20% when twisting the throttle?

As far as a faulty injector, that should show up as "injector open" or "injector shorted" fault code. The injector timing value that is shown is what the ECU is sending as an electrically pulse, the ECU doesn't know what really happened other than too little or too much current in the injector drive circuit.

If you are quickly chopping the throttle very quickly, is that the only condition you have this problem or does it happen under other throttle conditions?

When you engage the kill switch - does the ECU stop ignition or fueling?

When you bypassed the kill switch, was it at the ECU connector or after the length of the harness?

MAT

Brett,

(PS: look at the rpm readings in the data log text, something is not right.)

I was looking at the log files with notepad and notice many of the values seems to change in large steps and hold the exact same value for several reading before make another large step value. This seems a little unusual. It could be just and artifact of iBeat not updating the values fast enough.

It did get me thinking about you should use a digital meter and measure the 5 volt DC from the ECU that powers the sensors.

TIME RPM TPS BAT GEAR WT MAT MP AP ADV PULSE
92.40 1828 4.1 14.6 0 97.6 43.4 56.8 99.1 8.6 2163
92.50 1828 4.1 14.6 1 97.6 43.4 56.8 99.1 8.3 2915
92.60 1828 4.1 14.6 1 97.6 43.4 56.8 99.1 8.3 2915
92.70 1828 4.1 14.6 1 97.6 43.4 56.8 99.1 8.3 2915
92.81 2652 8.8 14.1 1 97.6 43.4 56.8 99.1 8.3 2915
92.92 2652 8.8 14.1 1 97.6 43.4 59.6 99.1 14.5 2915
93.02 2652 8.8 14.1 1 97.6 43.4 59.6 99.1 14.5 3103
93.12 2652 8.8 14.1 1 97.6 43.4 59.6 99.1 14.5 3103
93.22 2652 8.8 14.1 1 97.6 43.4 59.6 99.1 14.5 3103
93.33 2633 8.8 14.3 1 97.6 43.4 59.6 99.1 14.5 3103
93.43 2633 8.8 14.3 1 97.4 43.4 59.1 99.1 15.9 3121
93.53 2633 8.8 14.3 1 97.4 43.4 59.1 99.1 15.9 3121
93.63 2633 8.8 14.3 1 97.4 43.4 59.1 99.1 15.9 3121
93.76 4264 8.8 14.3 1 97.4 43.4 59.1 99.1 15.9 3121
93.86 4264 11.6 14.1 1 97.4 43.4 59.1 99.1 15.9 3121
93.97 4264 11.6 14.1 1 97.4 43.4 55.3 99.1 22.1 2992
94.07 4264 11.6 14.1 1 97.4 43.4 55.3 99.1 22.1 2992
94.17 4264 11.6 14.1 1 97.4 43.4 55.3 99.1 22.1 2992
94.28 3713 11.6 14.2 1 97.4 43.4 55.3 99.1 22.1 2992
94.39 3713 10.7 14.2 1 97.4 43.4 55.6 99.1 22.1 2992
94.49 3713 10.7 14.2 1 97.4 43.4 55.6 99.1 20.3 3054
94.59 3713 10.7 14.2 1 97.4 43.4 55.6 99.1 20.3 3054
94.69 3713 10.7 14.2 1 97.4 43.4 55.6 99.1 20.3 3054
94.80 4271 18.3 14.1 1 97.4 43.4 55.6 99.1 20.3 3054

There was this .4 second event at idle where the rpm instantly jumped to 3K which should cause the inject pulse going to 0. I don't think the rpm made a change like that. Could be a bad crank position sensor, wiring or bad ECU.

65.15 1920 0.0 14.6 0 94.3 43.1 51.0 99.1 8.5 2179
65.25 1920 0.0 14.6 0 94.3 43.1 51.0 99.1 8.5 2179
65.35 3070 0.0 14.3 0 94.3 43.1 51.0 99.1 8.5 2179
65.45 3070 0.0 14.3 0 94.5 43.1 43.0 99.1 19.2 2179
65.55 3070 0.0 14.3 0 94.5 43.1 43.0 99.1 19.2 0
65.66 3070 0.0 14.3 0 94.5 43.1 43.0 99.1 19.2 0
65.76 3070 0.0 14.3 0 94.5 43.1 43.0 99.1 19.2 0
65.87 2430 0.0 14.4 0 94.5 43.1 43.0 99.1 19.2 0
65.97 2430 0.0 14.4 0 94.5 43.1 49.7 99.1 12.1 2128
66.07 2430 0.0 14.4 0 94.5 43.1 49.7 99.1 12.1 2128
66.17 2430 0.0 14.4 0 94.5 43.1 49.7 99.1 12.1 2128

Here is another short time injector went to 0

70.54 1893 0.0 14.6 0 95.2 43.1 51.9 99.1 9.1 2259
70.64 1893 0.0 14.6 0 95.2 43.1 51.9 99.1 9.1 2259
70.77 2020 0.0 14.6 0 95.2 43.1 51.9 99.1 9.1 2259
70.88 2020 9.7 14.4 0 95.4 43.1 51.9 99.1 9.1 2259
70.98 2020 9.7 14.4 0 95.4 43.1 56.4 99.1 20.4 2942
71.08 2020 9.7 14.4 0 95.4 43.1 56.4 99.1 20.4 2942
71.20 2020 9.7 14.4 0 95.4 43.1 56.4 99.1 20.4 2942
71.31 4805 9.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 56.4 99.1 20.4 2942
71.41 4805 8.8 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 51.4 99.1 20.4 2942
71.51 4805 8.8 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 51.4 99.1 30.1 2202
71.61 4805 8.8 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 51.4 99.1 30.1 2202
71.71 4805 8.8 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 51.4 99.1 30.1 2202
71.82 4695 8.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 51.4 99.1 30.1 2202
71.93 4695 8.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 50.8 99.1 24.9 2202
72.04 4695 8.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 50.8 99.1 24.9 0
72.14 4695 8.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 50.8 99.1 24.9 0
72.24 4695 8.7 14.2 0 95.4 43.1 50.8 99.1 24.9 0
72.35 2504 0.0 14.6 0 95.4 43.1 50.8 99.1 24.9 0
72.45 2504 0.0 14.6 0 95.6 43.1 49.6 99.1 10.0 2128
72.55 2504 0.0 14.6 0 95.6 43.1 49.6 99.1 10.0 2128
72.65 2504 0.0 14.6 0 95.6 43.1 49.6 99.1 10.0 2128
72.78 1936 0.0 14.6 0 95.6 43.1 49.6 99.1 10.0 2128

Yes, data logging is wonderful, and required!

No, I'm not chopping the throttle as quickly as the logging implies. The signal just seems to drop out. In fact I was attempting to hold throttle steady while the 'event' was being logged to capture as much info as it could. The good and bad runs logged were as much the same 'ride' as possible.

Yes, hooked up to iBeat the TPS % responds smoothly in <1% increments.

The problem happens between 2$ and about ~20%, maybe more, if I got beyond this range the engine seems to respond normally (and accelerate of course).

I don't believe the problem has ever manifest itself after the engine has been running for more than a few minutes, rather I stop to catch my breath or wait for a buddy then after firing it up the problem occurs almost immediately.

I have a buddies 09 310 for a 'donor' cycle. I'll try swapping the ECU, though I'm not sure how different the ignition map or fuel curve will affect the 250, and separately I'll swap the throttle body (including MAQS and injector).

The throttle body assembly is nearly $500. The injector is $210. With the deals I've seen on left overs, I'm not so sure I'm willing to invest that much in a bike with 200+ hours.

I had a window open for several hours while adding to my last reply. I didn't see the other responses until after I posted.

BBMCat - I bypassed the kill switch at the connector shared with the start button. I'm not sure if the switch kills ignition or fuel or both, I just wanted to eliminate it as the cause. It remains disconnected and I'm using the keyed ignition switch.

Seymore - I agree things look very strange, without conclusive evidence pointing to a part...the problem really becomes that none of the parts are cheap enough buy to find out if it was it.

Coffee - I've got a 09 310 to try, if it won't run because of AFR, the PC V + AT will take care of that and I doubt the ignition curve is anything but better than the 08, i.e. it should run.

I didn't price an ECU, I guess I could, but I'm sure it's $$$.

The 09 310 ECU definitely works in 08 250, better even, the neutral lights blinks a code though the ECU records no faults (difference in the dash between 08 and 09 I presume).

However, my problem still exists. I got one good ride, definitely less 'hit' but nice and smooth, then stopped, refired a couple of times, problem back though somewhat less pronounced. At first I thought it might be AFR differences but iBeat logs confirm the injector pulse dropping to zero when it should not.

So, next will be the throttle body with injector and MAQS swap, but not tonight. It's my birthday.

Correct, 08 dash isn't compatible with 09 ECU.

Happy Birthday!


Dave

I am just another Husky owner with no experience troubleshooting this kind of problem on my bike, but I think the person above who pointed out the odd RPM behavior is on the right track. There is no way your engine accelerated directly from 2020 RPM to 4805 RPM in that short period of time (.1 sec?), and the false RPM readings precede the injector pulse going to zero. So I would assume that the false RPM reading is the root cause even if it's not the ultimate event that you notice. You already swapped the ECU so that's not it. I assume the RPM comes from a crank position sensor. Invest your efforts in verifying its physical mounting and the integrity of its grounding, wiring, connections, and shielding (if any). Have you done anything that might have increased electrical noise? (Non-resistor spark plug or added a noisy accessory for example.) Or it may just be a bad sensor. Hopefully someone knows more about this area than I do, but either way that's where 100% of my efforts would be going right now.

I don't find any references to a crank position sensor in the manual. Is it called out by another name? I suspect the pulse coil performs this function as there is a different space between the 'contacts' on the flywheel indicating the relative position of the crank. If so, I've replaced the pickup coil but not the flywheel. I have a puller but not the proper threaded nut required for the puller to bear against. My flywheel shows no physical damage, all the pulse coil 'contacts' are in place and lighting output is great so I don't suspect the permanent magnets have lost any energy.

I've not added anything electrical to the bike, I did replace the plug, ran Denso iridium since new, first with my stock plug and then with NGK iridium. Iridium works better. No other accessories on bike when problem first appeared. I did add after the problem PC V + Autotune but have removed it to simplify.

Brett,

I talked to the local shop service manager about your problem and the testing and data you have. He suggested that you should have your dealer get you in contact with the national tech service person. I didn't get his name, but was told there is only one person doing that job in the US.

In the meantime you might check the wiring from the crank pickup sensor to the ECU. The wiring between the two is shielded to keep electrical noise from the spark system from interfering with the low level signal from the pickup. A problem could cause the ECU to thing the rpms are too high and thus stopping the injector pulse.