totally agree, perfect off road do it all displacement. "Mike is riding a true 350. In a rule I like to call the "it is what it is" rule, bikes must have the same bore and stroke they come with in production." From same article above.
I'm going to chime in about those who say Reeds bike and others did not look like they were handling very good. Dont forget that these guys are running the highest tech and best functioning suspension in the world. Now weather they had it dialed in correctly for the track on that day is always a dynamic situation with how much a mx track can vary and change in a day of racing. Dont forget that these top 5 to 8 guys in both classes are hitting the bumps and jumps much faster than that of their other competitors, demanding that they set up suspension much, much stiffer than others. Then they come into choppy breaking bumps and the bike is ultimately too stiff for those sections of the tracks, and you get the hoppety hop syndrome. And of course when fatigue comes into the equation you really get a poor looking handling machine. But these guys should not be getting tired if they are training correctly. I know Allessi is a little fart so he looks way more agile out there too. I raced the Hangtown National for 10 yrs consecutevely from '85 to '95, when the track was its native soil. Shame on the Dirt Diggers for trying to make Hangtown a loamy track. Pleeese. It's a hard pack MX track. Now it gets all chopped out and rough. I say dont mess w/ mother nature, run a disc around the course of it's native soil and the place is beautiful. I feel better now.
I'm thinking about how well marketed the whole 350 thing has been: Put the world's best starter on the "small" motor and have him beat the whole class to the first turn, then rant about how awesome the bike must be. Whether you like that or not... kudos to KTM for pulling off what may be the best marketing in MX history. Like a well-played poker hand, they set the whole deal up. Doesn't matter to me, I enjoy watching Alessi ride, and he didn't fade late in the moto like he has on occassion. The only part I didn't like was how blatantly he pimped the bike on his TV interview. But you watch... it's gonna work... KTM is gonna sell the $#!+ out of that 350. Hey, if that's good for the industy and the sport, I'm for it. I WAS impressed, however, that the 350 did not seem to be pulled up that big hill. It hung in there pretty well. Reed was awesome. Glad he's back, glad he's healthy and competitive. Finally. For a while now it has seemed that Reed wasn't in his groove with that Kawi. I'm sure it's a good bike, lots of riders have had lots of success on the brand in recent years, but maybe it's just not Reed's bike. Outdoor MX is a kick-@$$ sport and it was showing on that day. I know that each year when we switch from SX to MX I notice how much rougher and tougher the outdoor tracks look.
It certainly is Not an 'it is what it is rule' .Not in the AMA - I've not checked what the FIM rules are. But KTM certainly can go bigger than a 350 if they want, just as Yamaha 400s weren't all 400s. The dimensions of the 350 are 88x 57.5 That is not a very short stroke (KTM and 'Berg 400/390 have a shorter stroke). The size piston they can go to is only limited by what they gave thought to in terms of stud patterns etc. The 350 engine is not a particularly tiny engine unit. A 100mm piston would make it a 451.7cc engine. It will be interesting to see just how big a potential displacement KTM have designed into the 350. Here's rules from AMA Pro Racing: d. Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition, provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class limit) must use items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing. e. Stroke must remain the same as the homologated model
Good info, i was just quoting the article. I really do not know a ton about the workings of MX, I am much more interested in off road.
remember the kato has kept the very user friendly 400cc size offroad machine. so the mid-mid size offroad machine has been kept in recent memory. For me the RFS 400EXC version is a great size machine (cc size) one of my crew has the 07 model and its a blast to ride. I am looking forward to having a 350-400c machine (offroad/enduro) in my future.
The AMA displacement rules and KTM's bore and stroke are interesting. Thanks for that. It makes me even more certain about my marketing comments... Since they're stuck with original stroke then went long. Now they can add bore, as needed. Why not have different bores and different power characteristics for different conditions/tracks? Over the next few years we'll probably see them juggle it around a bit. As mentioned, they already have quite a bit of experience around 400cc. Add a couple mm's to that 350 bore and... I'm just sayin'... KTM is not afraid to change motor configurations around, and I think they should be commended for that. By the way, this thread is mysteriously absent of linkage talk. Thought that would be a biggy. To this day, the VERY best rear suspension I've ever ridden was on my 1995 KTM 440 smoker. Ohlins, linkage, wow. Finally, they're back to as good as they were in '95?
I think Mike was railing that 350 incredibly well he really looked on fire.... If his performance keeps up and he doesnt get hurt....I suspect it will not be long before the writing is on the wall...Trust KTM for their relative small size to be able to try things and create niche products.....it would have been more risky for one of the big 4to do it for sure.....I was very impressed watching Mike ride that 350.... I remember when Honda came out with the CRF 150 everyone though it would change mini's overnight.....but there still the only one with a 4T Chad certainly didnt look smooth...yet he was still quick....dont know if you guys caught it.....but he got in one helluva tank slapper on some braking bumps just before a set of corner ruts.....
Agreed. And they do it year in, year out. They simply know their customer base better than anyone else. It amazes me that more bike companies don't market their products like KTM does. Until the '08 KTM models, I felt their bikes were lesser than others (handling) and yet they still sold a ton to offroaders. Any business could learn from how they targeted an under developed market and capitalized. I liked the Heros Ride Husky program a couple years ago and hope it comes back. But Husky could learn a bunch from how KTM's marketing.
I've been watching the 350SXF chatter myself as well. I thought Alessi's ride was good for the bike and seemed to validate some of the claims. A couple of observations: 1. Generally, it seems lap times are VERY close for the 450s vs. the 250s. Within seconds [or fractions of a second]. When the 450s are faster, invariably the conclusion is that the additional power is why. Maybe? But what about the fact that Reed and Dungey and Alessi are riding in the 450 class. My point here is I think the caliber of rider is the deciding factor -- not necessarily the displacement. 2. I'm not sure how much more "effective" KTM is at marketing. The switch back to linkage seems to me to acknowledge a failure of marketing for instance. What I do think KTM did better than anyone else was to offer machines for the off road world. 2 and 4 stroke machines that are truly competative. The XC and XCW are generally much better suited to serious off road riding than the 250/450 4-strokes currently being offered. The KDX was a great bike but not really "serious." 3. The only things, IMHO, holding Husky back is public perception and reputation. Note -- I didn't say actual performance. Anyone who has ridden a "new" Husky [like the TXC 250] can attest that they are great bikes and fast. Even the "old" 250/300 two strokes are still excellent [look at the WEC]. The problem isn't that the bikes aren't good. Its if you are spending $7000 you want the "latest and greatest." Most Husky's aren't. Husky will take off as soon as people perceive the bikes are up to date and on par with everything else out there. Note I said perception as I don't think the bikes are at any disadvantage, but perception is reality. 4. Finally, Husky would really do itself a favor by having next years models available when everyone else does [fall - generally]. I look at buying new bikes in the fall -- and I have a hard time waiting.
funny you should mention this, but when I was looking for a new factory supermoto that would be competitive on the race track, Husky was the hands down most advanced bike available. No one else makes anything close except maybe TM (1 dealer in the US) and KTM (but they stopped importing the 450 SMR) However if I were looking for a MX bike, I probably would have gone Orange again.
Completely agree. Remember when Stewert spanked everyone in the 250F class on a KX125 just to show he could? Many times his lap times on the lights bikes were faster then the 450 class.
remember it is still the indian and not just the arrow. O'Mara 1986 MXdN beats everyone (except teammate Bailey) on the CR125 Honda. Beating all the international (FIM) guys on their 500s and 125s (in the combined 125/500 moto)
"Back in the day" of motocross, 125, 250, and 500 classes, it was not uncommon for 125's to hold the lap record.
I'm sure KTM have a whole bunch of different size barrels and pistons / heads etc ( and cranks, even if FIM have the std stroke rule as well) in their 'tuning' arsenal. As I said , it's far from a tiny engine unit. And KTM And 'Berg need to get away from a 400/450 unit that is sized to be as big as 570+cc. So I see the 350 as being an engine module that they probably can take all the way to the class limit of 450cc, if need be - though I think they would keep the use of bigger internals quiet for marketing reasons. In MX Digital, the designer of the latest 250 Husky stated that it could be taken to 300/310cc - so even something as tiny as that unit was made to go bigger. Smaller bikes have Always got times comparable to bigger bikes, with the right rider on board. The open class has always been about the bikes being the most challenging to ride. That's why I am so dead against the premier class being reduced in capacity by rules - I want to see the open class like it was in the 500 heyday - a variety of different capacities / strokes between the minimum ( I think it may have been around 300cc - the FIM banned slightly over bored 250s in the 60s when Paul Friedrichs won the title on a 250 based CZ - the AMA does allow 251cc and above 4ts) and the maximum size allowed out there on the track, going at it.
As to the linkage...KTM said for years they didn't need a linkage. Now they will have them on their 4-strokes. But the KTM 2-strokes..they still don't need a linkage. Until they make sure it works on their 4-strokes; I say. In my area of VA they sell way more 2-strokes than 4-strokes and I don't think they want to upset that core group of riders.
After the first moto, I was thinking that maybe the 350 would be better for SX where weight is a bigger factor. But then after the second moto, I realized that less weight plus less gyroscopic forces means that Alessi will be fresher for the second moto than other 450 riders. Perhaps he'll kill in every second moto if he doesn't win the first? Or maybe I'm overstating the advantage...
