BTW, I was curious about that Ken... What did they do to it? Them are baja racer folks. Oh, and don't mind me..just learning as we go. If this thing is a must-have then I gotta know if I gotta have one. LOL.
Chris, Trying to get me to unseal my lips already! I guess it's OK to explain. I had those guys modify my new TE310R with their crank mod and some other internal stuff like valves so that it would hold up to sustained high speed like they do in the desert. They are Husky experts and I understand that Ty is personally doing the work on the engine. Michael (Tinken) told me that I could probably hold the 310 wide open for 500 miles and it would hold together after what they did to it. I certainly won't be doing that, but I do need to be able to run the highway to and from my local trails, and keep up with the other more dual sporty bikes. I wouldn't hold Michael or the Zip Ty folks to the 500 WFO but I know the bike is much better able to take what I throw at it now without frying the big end. I decided to let them install the new output shaft instead of doing it myself. By the way, Ty owns a TE630 along with all his other race bikes. In the past I would have had to do the work, but fortunately no longer. While the engine is apart I asked them to do the crank mod on the 630 as well as they say it will benefit from the work. I truly don't know if it is needed as the 630 seems to be very robust and isn't known for big end problems, but since the crank is out, and the cost isn't great for the machining, why not. While they are in there I'll get a new cam chain and gears, a modified clutch basket with Indy Unlimited's spring cups, clutch hub bushing, rings, etc. Essentially freshening the engine. All this could have waited a long time had the shaft spline problem not showed up. This summer I ran my little Yamaha WR250R from the Mexican border to the Canadian border on trails, and returned mostly on pavement at highway speed. I do the same kind of thing with the TE630 and just want to give it every chance to hold together. So far it has, beautifully, other than the shaft thing. In any case, I'll be putting the mods to the acid test soon, and will report once the miles stack up.
Sounds like a good deal. Great that they can do that kind of work for you. I did not realize you could have them do engine work. I had forgotten that you got the 310. And the Terra too. I guess you're A bonafide HUSKY FREAK.
Some things you state here are very confusing, such as "People have had similar issues on all sorts of bikes...". What issue are speaking of? Premature gearbox wear, spline shaft wear, or catastrophic failure? All of the above. My comment in particular though was related to spline wear. The most catastrophic type of gearbox failure in terms of parts cost is the destruction/chipping of the drive teeth, destruction/chipping of the dog teeth (in a dog engagement gearbox) or destruction/chipping/wearing of the shaft splines. Other failures are munched or worn selector forks, stuffed bearings and so on, but those aren't the types of wear I’m speaking of. "You just get to make up your own mind" - while that's easy to say, what criteria will we use to make up our own mind? Because Woody's made one we should decide if we should buy it? I'm just not getting this. It’s got nothing to do with Woody’s, they just build nice wheels. My point was this - I’m not trying to convince you to buy one (or not). "...a cushhub reduces gearbox wear..." How does it do this? What kind of wear? What exactly does a cushhub eliminate that causes this wear? It's a general consensus from whom? All a cush hub does is reduce ‘shock loads’ (so to speak). To a negligible degree it also reduces the total energy transfer (some energy is wasted, principally as heat during the compression of the rubber and as friction between the rubber and the housing). What it really does though is increase the time period over which the energy is transferred by adding more elastic (or close enough to it) deformation to the system. Increasing the timeframe means a reduction in the peak stress applied across the contact surfaces in the drivetrain during the transfer of the energy. This in turn reduces the risk of chipping, pitting, spalling or elastically deforming any of the metallic engagement surfaces within the entire drivetrain as the reduced peak stress (the peak stress being reduced by the compression of the rubber as the total energy is transferred over a longer time frame) minimise the strain in the material at the contact interfaces. You then need to understand some basic contact mechanics and the Hertzian and Non-Hertzian models to realise why this can reduce wear at the engagement surfaces...but that’s beyond what I’m willing to write (plus I would need to dredge it up from the deep recesses of my mind where it hopefully still lurks). Nevertheless, the consensus I referred to though was that of the people that have done much more riding under harsher conditions than myself and reported less wear and tear on their drivetrain after installing a cush hub (and even better, slipper clutches). A cush hub also makes for a smoother ride, less ‘unpleasant’ drivetrain lash when changing gears and general reduction in NVH. I thought the knobby tire had a similar effect on drive train shock as a cush hub. And the slipper clutch. It is to cushion crankshaft pulses, right? You are correct that knobbies will reduce the peak stress on the drivetrain since less friction can be generated between the tyre and the track/road surface so there is less force and total energy being applied to the system in the first place. Whether it’s enough of a reduction and whether it’s a consistent reduction on all road surfaces is another story though. This is why cush hubs and slipper clutches are important in supermoto as the road tyres in use on high traction race tracks will definitely generate more force than knobbies on a loose surface ever could. There is no direction in this system as far as a cush hub is concerned, there is no upstream/downstream difference. This is because the engagement surfaces are symmetric on both sides (and hence in both directions) in this drivetrain. The overall drivetrain extends from the top of the piston to the tyres contact patch....engine pulses, tyre compression lock, it doesn't matter, it's all just manifested as tension and force in the drivetrain just on different sides of symmetric shapes. These forces will always act to speed up the engine and slow the bike, or, slow the engine and speed up the bike in an equal and opposite manner (in a lossless ideal drivetrain anyway). The job of the drivetrain is to link the energy states of these two end entities so that they share a similar energy; i.e. the engines energy is being applied to the wheel and vice versa when decelerating. A slipper clutch or cush hub acts to limit the peak load and rate of transfer within that drivetrain between the two systems. Why don't dirt bike trans wear out prematurely from running them so hard on a track, jumps, winding it out as it hits the ground, etc. They do. They wear, break and need rebuilding and parts replacement from doing all of those things. This is the prime reason that landing a jump with the throttle open is bad juju. What about shaft drive? What do they have for a cushion? I have no personal experience with them but I reckon you would find that they have synchromesh boxes, slipper clutches in the road models and variant of a cush drive using rubber (or something similar) dampers in the drivetrain. I can't equate the spring washer wear to a failure of the bike's drive train. I would seem more to me that it was a simple engineering decision that just wasn't up to the application. They just weren't strong enough. How does that mean the system isn't up to the task? You might be right, it could have been poorly chosen washers. However, when I looked at the damage to my clutch basket and the washers behind the springs it was indicative of high peak stress loads (i.e. significant and non-uniform deformation) rather than failure due to cyclic loading or repetitive friction (smoother and more uniform wear on the surfaces involved). The only way to transfer high peak loads through a spring is to compress it completely and cause it to bind (unless you choose absolutely the wrong spring coefficient for the application). What I saw indicated that there was enough energy to have caused the springs to completely compress, bind and then buckle into the edges of the clutch basket and in the process this places unequal loading on the face of the spring washers and snaps them down the middle. This is my basket, I have no idea what other peoples looked like, I’m just assuming it’s a similar failure mechanism – I could be wrong there. They also directly contradict SimpleOne claim that the gearboxes are lighter on a dirtbike, they actually say they are 'beefed up' and that wear is a non-issue running them on the pavement without a cush hub. Maybe in their experience but that is not mine. The gearbox in my TE630 is miniscule compared to that in my ZX-6R - there is a huge reduction in the size of the mating surfaces on both the drive teeth and the dog engagement teeth of the Husky; and both are 600cc. My ZX is factory equipped with both a slipper clutch and cush hub but I would say that is also about reducing undesirable/unsafe handling traits such as rear wheel hop induced by compression lock during high speed downshifts as it is to do with drivetrain longevity and general reliability. I can't say what the differences were in splines. From what I can find browsing the interwebs is road bikes come with a cush hub to make them smoother. Lots of other bikes without them with lots of miles with no premature wear or failure. Yep this is another reason, makes a bike feel much more refined with reduced noise, vibration and harmonics. BTW, one sumpermoto racer thought the cush hub was to ease transitions from decel to accel in cornering. Proper clutching and shifting makes WAY more difference on gearbox life than whether you have a cush hub or not. Yes. As well all know, just because its on the internet doesn't mean it's valid. Can't say for spline shaft wear. None of us can say empirically. Well, not unless you or some other benefactor wants to fund my destructive testing regime until I achieve a reasonable p-value to make the results significant. Anyway for me, doing the rebuild at just under 15,000km's is a major pain in the arse, and I will spend a bit of time and money now in the hope of preventing such a short term failure occurring again. I really hope it was just a crap batch of original countershafts, but I'm now sufficiently paranoid to spend a bit more to try and mitigate the factors involved as much as possible. Personally I think the causes of spline wear there are rusting and repetitive shock loading, so this partially mitigates one of the contributing factors in my view.
I think it is great that there is lots of talk around this. Simple one whats your plan to try and mitigate wear after your rebuild. I bought my bike at a great price ( alot less them the new 690 I was about to buy ) so I am happy to spend a few quid making it a better ride and hopefully a stronger bike with longevity. I rang a local wheel builder for a quote today. What other options is there negate spline wear ?
So Ken how much are all those Zip-Ty mods running you? ....wait don't answer, best not to throw another fire bomb on the still smoldering house. hahaha I'll wait until next month and you can whisper it to me in Patagonia. Now back to thread topic somewhat. Did you ever install your Kush sprocket? Looks like they are shut down at the moment, not sure if permanent or temporary but I still held out hope for their product. Seems they were fairly close to a reliable product. Those that tried it had good reviews of driveline improvement just not for longevity. _
David, bike is still in CA so no install on the rear wheel yet. I do have a new brake rotor on order, and a sprocket is already on so all I will need to do is spoon on a tire and hope that everything fits! ZT does great work but for something major, you just have to be patient and let them work it into their schedule. Work on the race bikes is always going to take priority, and it should, so I try to stay in relaxed mode. I do hope to have it back before our group ride at the end of February, but time is getting tight. As to cost, I don't know yet. I'm positive that the drive-line snatch is going to be lessened, and I'm going to be curious on the cam chain wear as well.
SO - what failures did you have that required a rebuild? Countershaft splines? And you went thru the gearbox and found more wear or damage? I'm at 6500 miles - when should I look at my spring cup washers? BTW, that's not very many miles for chain and sprockets either, however all wear was from acceleration and not deceleration - tooth cupping. Chain was floppy and kinky.
Chris, not sure if you are asking me, but if so, the only "failure" was worn splines, and they were not yet terminal. I just wanted to get the work done over the winter as I have some serious riding planned this year. As for cup washers, I don't know if mine are worn or not but the washers installed on a good clutch hub that I bought on Ebay was not a lot of money. Once again, it's just preventative at this point. Like the splines, some have had the stock washers wear and fail, and some have not. I have to suspect that both of these things are metallurgical issues, or maybe QC issues. It's probably good to pull the clutch cover occasionally to look at the spring cups. If they look different, or are beginning to thin, take care of it. You have to pull that cover anyway to pull the right side screen. Which I have never done, by the way. Should have though. Other than the splines, my bike has been stone reliable, and except for the wide turning radius, the best dual sport in my garage. I'm running Ironman for the rear sprocket (45T), and it's the best brand I've found. They never seem to wear out.
I was actually asking SimpleOne (SO) but good to know. I've had the clutch cover off once and the screen was clean but it's due for an oil and filter change so I'll pull it again this time. IIRC you can't really see the washers without pulling the clutch, no? However debris in the screen would be telltale. I have always noticed a kind of a rattle nose from the motor climbing steep trails when it gets lugged way down. Always thought it was odd, now suspect you can hear that clutch making noise when the springs are springing. If you think the turning radius is bad try out a 690. I have to chuckle at the KTM guys, they surely think their 690's are gold. Digging deeper you find so many issues it's mind boggling, from EFI, pumps, electrical, broken and burnt turn signals, it just goes on and on. Plus the tank is in the back on a plastic subframe and then there's that close ratio gearbox. Anyone with at least a modicum of sense wishes for wider spaced ratios. The rest are so smitten they just think it's great. Ah well, I guess if there was no 630 I might be on one anyway. You said group ride in Feb? You're in Tucson now? We spent the holidays over in Phoenix (south mountain) at my sisters place, she's battling cancer. Then we were up to Sedona for a couple of days and drove the car to Jerome and Flagstaff, back through Oak Creek Canyon. Oh my, some terrific riding to be done in northern AZ. Going back by bike asap. Have you met AZTOM yet? Old timer in Prescott - guy knows his way around by motorbike.
That noise (I hear it too) could be the springs in the clutch hub (Have to pull the plates to see them), or it could be the cam chain. When I took my bike in it was making a bit more noise than usual down in the low rpms. When I take a long ride into unknown country that is liable to be really difficult in places, I take the WR250R, just because it deals with tight switch backs and such so much better than the TE and has more ground clearance. However, rarely is the difference critical. The big TE is actually not much heavier the way I have it, and is really stable in sand, gravel, etc., and has nice power for the high speed stuff. I like both bikes though, and the WR's maintenance is so low! In Tucson now and there is some nice riding locally2016, but the areas just north of Phoenix look to be supreme! I'm leading a ride here at the end of February, with folks coming from CA to the East Coast and Mid-West. We are staging our of Patagonia, just south of here. In 2016 we are thinking of staging out of Black Canyon City for several days, but I need to do some pre-riding there this summer. Oh yeah, some great road and trails here and I'm really happy to have made the move. 'Haven't met AZTOM yet but sounds like I should.
About supermoto racing: I've watched a pair of interviews on Youtube, in which two technicians of supermoto pro teams said that they use adjustable cush hubs in order to get more grip in slippery conditions. They adjust them simply replacing the rubber cushions. Since they don't show the disassembled hubs and the Language is not English, I think it's useless to link the videos.
Ken I was asking about your Kush sprocket not cush hub. I remembered you posting before you bought one I think. Even though they have their quality issues I would be happy to purchase it from you if never installed. Surely with your cush hub you won't want to mess with it now. _
David, let's talk about it when you are here in February. I haven't really decided whether to keep the old wheel and put an alternate tire on it. or to sell, keep as a spare, etc. My Kush Sprocket is holding up fine so far. No visible wear or failure.
So when I pulled my engine I toleranced the whole thing. I pulled it due to the worn splines and found the clutch basket washers had disintegrated. I put in the Indy Unlimited washers and replaced the countershaft, the gears themselves were alright though there was some pitting on the second gear engagement surfaces. I just smoothed them out and put it back in because I couldn't actually find anyone willing to get me just a new second gear (only complete gearbox assemblies which I was not going to pay for) - I live in hope that it keeps working now! The rest of the engine was fine and all in spec (as you would hope at only 15k km's). I did other random bits that were coming up in the service schedule like replace the timing chain and so forth just to save doing that a few thousand km's later. I originally bought a Kush Sprocket which I'm going to keep on the stock wheel with a much more aggressive dirt knobby, if I know I'm really going offroad I'll swap that in. On the new wheel I'll probably use more a dual sport knobby like the D606, MT21, TKC80 etc, simply for the improved wear and handling on road stints. That's another benefit of the cush hub, it opens up your gearing choices completely without having to be constrained by what's available (or not) with the Kush sprocket whilst still removing some shock in the driveline. Speaking of that, seems like they have shut down, but I hope it's only temporary as it seemed like a great way to cheaply add some extra give in the drivetrain! If I could afford to live like Kenneth then that's that what I would do, I'd have a lighter smaller bike for the real dirt stuff. I'd love to see his garage, sounds like an awesome collection, hope they all get nicely used! Chain stretch and tooth wear is normally due to either poor chain maintenance or if that wasn't the case, it's normally due to having the chain overly tight. The TE630 doesn't use the CTS design so as the swingarm moves the chain tension will vary, if the chain tension is really way to tight then it will bind the movement of the swingarm (feels akin to bottoming the shock) at some point in the swingarms travel - this really accelerates wear and will probably result in the chain snapping sooner rather than later. Assuming it's not way to tight, rather just a bit tight, then it instead starts wearing the rollers and roller pins and cupping the teeth on the sprocket as the swingarm moves and places extra tension on the chain thus accelerating wear on those components. I would check the clutch washers when you next do an oil change (start by looking for any metal caught in any of the three filters or on the drain plug). If you see signs of it there, pop the clutch cover and remove the plates (if you haven't done it before, this is way easier than it might sound) and have a look at the springs and basket. I really can't say when to check it, mine were stuffed when I got the bike so I can't really tell you when they might go under what sort of riding unfortunately - just pays to be vigilant during oil changes and maybe a bit inquisitive and just pop that clutch cover to settle it in your own mind, one way or the other.
Definitely pays to be vigilant. Catch things before they get really bad or go boom. You know it's funny, one of the Tiger 800 riders thinks he bought a 500lb dirtbike and was talking about how to get rid of his cush hub to make it easier to wheelie the bike. I dunno, I think he just watched too many of those Icon vids.
BMW's have known issues with drive shaft spline wear. Yamaha r1's have known issues with 2nd gear wear. I just think greasing the shaft splines helps prevent corrosion and it only takes 5 mins. If only for a piece of mind, and its cheap. I was wondering if a small amount of sideways play could contribute to spline wear, there is only a crappy circlip holding it. I only ride on pavement and have already snapped the OEM chain and worn out the clutch spring washers in less than 5000 miles, could spline wear be the next issue looming. I had my own spring washers made here in the UK from tool steel. The non standard fitment of a cush hub was probably just cost cutting. I could have bought a KTM but there's loads of problems with them and awful dealer support, it seem they use their customers as an R&D department. Suoermotos friggin ROCK!
I think that the circlip-only retention of the sprocket may contribute to the spline wear issue but a qualified mechanical engineer would be in a better position to judge. I thought about having the end of the output shaft threaded and then machining a retaining washer, but if the transmission isn't designed to take the side thrust of a retaining bolt, you could trash the entire transmission. I'm going to use Locktite.
Yep, I bought my Husky partly for it's traits, and partly because it just smashed the 690's on the pricing front. My plan to mitigate wear is to keep the splines rust free, use cush system (hub and/or sprocket) and try to find front sprockets that are the closest to having an interference fit on the splines. If I have a choice I'll be using the sprocket made from the softest steel alloy that is available but I doubt the information will be available to really even know this and I'm not going to get to run around doing Brinell Hardness tests on them So the major things in order of freeness: 1. Keep the driveshaft corrosion free. 2. Keep the driveshaft clean, don't let any grease or oil that is used collect dust and form a lapping compund. 3. Minimise play between the sprocket splines and the driveshaft splines (either with a new/different sprocket or maybe Kenneth's Loctite solution might be a good one - just be aware if you use something super agro from the Loctite range and then find yourself needing to remove the sprocket in the field then you could have real troubles) 4. Try and steer clear of 'super hard unobtanium' front sprockets when purchasing new ones. 5. Add a cush drive component in the system, either a hub or sprocket.
