Since the beginning I have communicated extensively with Roberto (the Motorbike guru at MM), and the problem lies fairly and squarely at BMW's feet.
[quote="WayneC,a slightly aggressive injector turn off on overrun.[/quote] I am of the opinion this is the crux of the matter and not hard to adjust.
I'd say if you're an US owner and have not complained to the NHTSA then you should do so immediately. The fact that there are so few bikes, ~1000, and multiple tiers of liability I seriously doubt NHTSA will be able to force compliance. It already appears KTM is on a path of denial that there is a fix. My guess is KTM will say there is no fix they can implement and BMW will claim it's no longer their responsibility. For 1000 units I doubt the NHTSA is going to push either manufacturer to aggressively implement a fix. I suggest in any complaint to the NHTSA that you mention the updated firmware BMW is currently installing on their own Weber/Marelli ECU bikes. NHTSA employees are probably unaware of the BMW sister bikes and their newest firmware. My wife and I are both Federal employees. In both our jobs we have only a few really qualified people within our offices. Those qualified employees always get the largest and most difficult cases. Minor cases such as ours are usually handled by someone with less than stellar aptitude. Seeing as this is such a relatively small issue I can almost guarantee the attending NHTSA employee is one of the lackluster employees and is not up to snuff on motorcycles much less fuel injection related issues. The only way to further this is to move many complaints through the NHTSA system. The more complaints that are recieved the higher a priority the issue becomes. AKA, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
We have gone through this with many complaints to date, the TR650 has been recalled in Canada and the USA, it is now the responsibility of KTM to implement a solution to repair the random stall, I don't think it is that difficult to change the firmware to alter the ECU. NHTSA subs all engineering to people who understand the problem. BMW will do the right thing when they are forced to. The squeaky wheel has gotten us this far and will get us to the final solution. Regardless the more complaints we get the better. http://www.safercar.gov/
"I'd say if you're an US owner and have not complained to the NHTSA then you should do so immediately." What he said. That's my intent now, despite not having what I thought were significant enough to warrant it previously. Thanks for bringing that up.
Dan, KTM is only the distributor of the Husqvarna's and was not the distributor at the time of manufacture or sale of the machines so they cannot be expected to understand what happened. Owners need to explain it to them. An immediate fix is sitting there in OSS for most problems but further improvement is needed.. The basics are that the Husqvarna/Dealers did not ensure all machines delivered to customers were updated to the latest firmware when they were sold. The last firmware released solves 90+% of the problems so there is a fix sitting there waiting for those with problems. The machines here in Oz which have been updated have resolved the owner's problems, our safety authority has been involved in arranging one update and is well aware a fix is available. Our Safety Authority communicates on a regular basis with NHTSA and knows Bob Young the person at NHTSA referred to in the letter earlier in the thread. Bob Young is also well familiar with dealing with BMW. I had some dealing with him over a BMW model problem a few years ago The updates done for the BMW G650GS/Sertao recently go further and resolve additional problems and it will be up to BMW to implement those additional improvements into the Terra/Strada firmware via the OSS diagnostics system which some but not all Husqvarna Dealers have access to which is why it is important for US owners to insist BMW Dealers be allowed to diagnose and program these models. Having as many owners as possible lodge NHTSA complaints and explain it all to KTM NA will increase the pressure and as you say the squeaky wheel gets attention so you are right in encouraging more people to lodge the complaints
I realize KTM won't be able to address the issues without help from BMW NA and am seriously frustrated that the BMW/Husky dealers that do have the firmware and computers to download the upgrades won't use it on the Husky. My local BMW/Husky dealer has refused to upgrade my Husky stating liability issues and warnings from BMW NA to not address the MOSS/ECU issues for Husky owners. That's why I'm calling on owners to report their fueling issues. To date NHTSA only show 24 complaints. May be that their site is slow to update new complaints but I have a hard time fathoming only 24 complaints from over a 1000 bikes sold. I am hopeful that Bob Young can address the issues and get a fix for the affected machines. But I'm not holding my breath.
I have to agree with DanD, I had filed when Magoo had first encouraged everyone to do so. When I searched the NHTSA for my VIN# (6 months ago) it wasn't present, so I reentered everything. It also wasn't present this morning and again I reentered everything. At the very least check your VIN to insure that it has been entered in the data base. As for what has been happening to me I can't explain but I did write to Bob Young.
I also filled out the NHTSA form the first time around and again yesterday. My VIN does not show up either. IDK what the protocol is for posting the complaints but it is less than perfect.
There are at least 32 complaints in there, list is below We ran into the NHTSA missing ID No's on the 650GS fork issue a few years back, it was a combination of transcribing errors when NHTSA staff re enter from the complaints into their database, sometimes the model number/name entered would be slightly different and there is also a time delay between when you complain and when they enter it into the database. I recall looking for Dave's complaint when he first told me about the Terra problem and asked me to look into it all and the model entered was slightly different but eventually I found it
http://www.safercar.gov/ https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/ or you can call 1-888-327-4236 or for the hearing impaired like me (to much construction) call 1-800-424-9153 I have done both call and fill out the online form 3 three times to date and all my complaints are listed, not sure what your not doing right but keep trying and fill in all the blanks I assume I was also the first one they contacted about the USA recall, I wonder if anyone else has been contacted, Am I the only squeaky wheel, i doubt it.
Errors on the part of NHTSA staff could well be the problem. I see my original complaint in your list but when I search 2013/Husqvarna/TR650 on the recall page of NHTSA I only see 25 complaints listed in total, none of which are mine. I guess the other seven complaints are for 2012 or 2014 models? I really love how KTM says the fix is under development in the "remedy" section of the recall below. KTM knows exactly what the fix is. The real problem is about who is going to pay for it. RECALL NOTICE: Manufacturer: KTM North America, Inc. SUMMARY: KTM North America, Inc. (KTM) is recalling certain model year 2013-2014 Husqvarna TR650 Terra and TR650 Strada motorcycles manufactured January 1, 2012, to December 31, 2013. The affected motorcycles may unexpectedly stall. CONSEQUENCE: A stall increases the risk of a crash. REMEDY: The remedy for this recall is still under development. The manufacturer has not yet provided a notification schedule. Owners may contact KTM customer service at 1-440-985-3553. NOTES: Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov.
From the list Wayne posted my complaint was #09. When I searched my VIN# it was not there. I re-entered all of my information yesterday and when I hit send I got an error message stating that my email was already in use, that's messed up.
Just for fun, if any of you call KTM, see if you can find a way to mention/remind that GM lost alot of money not fixing the ignition switch issues. KTM is aware of this safety issue, and should something happen, remind them that the courts will not look favorably on their inaction. And just because it didn't happen yet, don't mean it can't or won't happen. In other words if you get stonewalling or runaround, bring in the big guns and let them know that they are on notice and it will cost like hell should something happen. This is about safety not how much they can save by kicking the can down the road. If they know it will cost more to postpone a solution, then we get moved up in priority over what color scheme to choose for the next years models. A life and death safety issue, even if only small number of bikes, should take priority. And the squeaky Terra owners constantly reminding them the longer it takes, the more it will cost, should get them going. 2nd to last time I called the NHTSA I made darn sure to implicate BMW in this boondoggle. I gave them the BMW recall info, the Canadian recall info etc. I think I have called 4 times, 2 complaints. My email was wrong in my first complaint so I never got any notices.
Just filed my complaint to help out and adding another bike to the list. I've only had 3 times it's happened to me, twice when the bike was new, and about 4 months ago.
I spoke with KTM customer service today and he was a nice enough guy but had no information as to a timeline of when the 'fix' will be in. He did state that they are currently compiling recall notices and sending them out. He also stated that the recalls will be done through the Husqvarna dealer network and that they are currently trying to get those dealers the tools to implement the remap. He added most current Husqvarna dealers only have OSS which is not able to reprogram our ECUs. OSS can only read faults and reset the 'wrench'. I also spoke to the service manager at Hall's Cycles, where my bike originated, and he stated that they do have a MOSS machine capable of implementing a remap but no new updated fueling maps. He stated BMW has had the new maps for the G650 and Sertao for some time now but BMW has not loaded the Husqvarna serial numbers into the data base that he can access. He also stated that the MOSS machine they have 'works when it wants to'. He said they've had nothing but trouble with their MOSS machine and that BMW has not been cooperative in resolving their MOSS issues. He also didn't sound very optimistic that a remap was the true fix but did not elaborate beyond that. I've resorted to holding the throttle open at stops to an idle around 2k and that is working for me right now. I had three stalls on an off ramp this week which prompted me to hold the throttle slightly open at a stop. My stalling issues had been minor til this riding season. As inferred by Hall's service manager I think there may be more to this than the remap. I still encourage all who haven't yet to file a NHTSA complaint. It only takes a few minutes. Until then I'll be holding that throttle open and waiting.
He also didn't sound very optimistic that a remap was the true fix but did not elaborate beyond that. Is it possible that in order to comply with the requirements of the various emission regulations, this particular engine as sold (on both Husqvarna and BMW) needed to be mapped really lean and it is this lean map and its associated equipment (purge valve system etc) that is actually causing these stalling issues. Is it possible that the manufacturers (BMW, Husqvarna, KTM) are actually unable to come up with re-map or a solution to the problem that will still comply with the emission regulations? Obviously Map 2 is better than Map 1 and Map 3 appears to be the best yet, but do they actually rectify the fault completely? If the stalling issue is down to a fault with a physical design that was required by the emissions regulations, (purge valve etc) how are the manufacturers going to be able to fix it and still remain in compliance ? It would appear that they are currently arguing over liability more than they are about the actual solution, if indeed there is one. I would hope that in the long run there is a viable solution and we all get our bikes 'fixed' however, the way this appears to be panning out, I will not be holding my breath. Fortunately, the same as many other guys here, I have used alternative means and successfully resolved the stalling issues on my own particular bike (and others who have asked for my help) therefore the recall and the potential fix, (if ever there is one where I live) is, at this moment in time, pretty much irrelevant to me. I do sincerely hope that those of you in the US are able to pursue this particular recall and gain full satisfaction all the way.
My opinion is that the map needs changing to map 2 or 3 but, that being said, I think some of the others have proven that injector sizing has showed promise as well as spark plug choice. So, I say it is a three fold problem.
Agreed Charlie, but I am of the opinion that the manufacturers may not be able to fully rectify the fault by mapping alone. The whole lean burn issue as required by the restrictive emissions regulations has resulted in a bike with an engine that has unsatisfactory characteristics. The oversize (+10%) injector certainly fixes the stumble and makes the bike run really well, as do the other tuning devices (Power Commander etc) , but none of these comply with the stringent emissions regulations criteria. My question is, how are the manufacturers going to totally fix the problem and still remain in compliance with the regulations, I believe they may not be able to do it. This leads us back to where we currently are, running with after market add-ons and tuning devices that do not comply but do fix the issues. We as owners have proven that we can fix our bikes using these methods, but of course the manufacturers are unable to 'break the rules' so to speak.
