Which battery?

[Huskyfly]

Wow.......that's some crazy battery stories, I didn't know this was hot topic?!

Earth-X....hmmmm

 

[CJBROWN]

The lead acid exception here being an AGM battery like the Yuasa that comes stock in our bike. It closely rivals the discharge rate of a Lithium battery.

For anyone going Lithium, just be careful about letting them ever getting completely discharged. I've personally seen two incidents, both probably avoidable but a possibility that doesn't exist with lead acid batteries. One Shorai was dead and put on a charger, battery smoked and circuitry fried crispy. Another Shorai was dead in the morning, after numerous start attempts and then a jump start bike fired up and ran fine. 15 miles later into the ride the Shorai caught fire. Full blown flames and only got it out by smothering it with sand. That fire took out a good portion of a 990 Adventure wiring harness which was a very costly repair.

On the latter, why I wouldn't buy a lithium battery for my motorcycle, plus the cost is stupid IMO. Saving 5lbs on a 350lb bike also makes no sense to me. It's still a heavy pig of a dirtbike. Or as we tend to say, it is what it is. LOL. Let's see, at $250 that's $50 a pound to save weight, which is not in my reality. But then it doesn't make sense to me to spend a grand on an exhaust system to save five or ten pounds either. I'm getting more practical in my old age.

On the former, I did a little research here on AGM's...from Northern Arizona Wind and Sun, a company I trust about batteries, they are an outstanding supplier of low voltage components, and solar equipment:
AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.


They have an excellent FAQ on batts in general here: http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html

It looks like we both need to give a little on how they hold up - they discharge a bit less than I thought and a bit more than you thought. I also suspect as they age their rate increases, or their peak capacity diminishes, so I hold to my claim that they need to be on a trickle charger if you're not going to use the machine for more than a couple of weeks. I know from experience if you don't maintain them they will measure out at about 12.4V which is about 50-60 percent of charge. Not where I want my battery to be sitting for when I want to cold-start the bike and ride it. I want it closer to 80-90%. Plus if you leave it discharged it diminishes its capacity over time and shortens its overall life.

PWC's (personal watercraft) are highly known to have ruined batteries from sitting over winter. They all have a motorcycle type agm starting battery.

 

[Guoseph]

I got an EarthX for my 250 and it seems to work great. The only thing with those is that the fasteners they use for the EarthX are huge (M6?), I had to drill out the holes on the battery connectors to fit the EarthX.

@CJBROWN which model AGM did you get from Battery Mart for the 630? How fast is their shipping?

Thanks

 

[CJBROWN]

http://www.batterymart.com/p-ytx14-...Category_Code=husqvarna-te610e-sm610s-battery

$50 free ship, one year warranty. I think it took about 2-days. And now I'm on their mailing list and get something in my inbox almost every day. LOL

The way everyone carries on about batteries I was really skeptical. A Yuasa from MCSS is about $80 IIRC. Even a Walmart powersport batt is about $65 - which I have used before and they were fine. I think they come from Johnson-Controls and quality is decent. But I figured for fifty bucks I'd give it a whirl, if it was junk and crapped out I'd go a different route.

The external quality is the same as any other powersport battery I've used. I installed it about a year ago and so far it is just like any other agm powersports battery I've used over the years. I keep a smart charger on it when it's parked in the garage for long periods - a Shumaker smart charger from wally-fart. Most of my riding miles get put on the Tiger 800.

EDIT. I'm now shopping for house batteries for the motorhome. I put 2 6V golf cart batteries in series in it and they have been absolutely fantastic. Like 220AH of power. That was 7 years ago. One of them finally won't hold charge, looks like a shorted plate. The other one is still good. They were $75 back then, likely costco or Sam's. So everybody raves about Trojan - list is $190 each. I found a retailer out here that sells them for $120 each so I'll likely go that route. US Battery has them for about ten bucks less but the cases are lighter and they tend to bulge over time. And of course they are an unknown quantity (quality). For a seven year life the extra $20 is well worth it for the top brand I guess.

 

[Guoseph]

Cool, Thanks. I'm gonna get one of these and see how they work.

 

[XLEnduroMan]

I disconnect my negative cable if I am not going to ride it the next day. I hook it back up and put the tender on it before riding. Usually only takes 5 minutes or less to get the green light. Still on the stock Yuasa's.

 

[CJBROWN]

I disconnect my negative cable if I am not going to ride it the next day. I hook it back up and put the tender on it before riding. Usually only takes 5 minutes or less to get the green light. Still on the stock Yuasa's.

Too fiddly. A SAE connector is a lot more convenient, plus can be used for other accessories like pump, phone charger, heated vest, etc.
One of my dealers installs one on every new bike so they can keep the batts topped up on the floor. So their bikes come with one.

These are about $2 at an electronics parts store. I put fused leads on the accessories I plug in, or you can wire in a fuse holder.

 

[Coop610]

I tried to start mine yesterday and it was dead. I put the battery (A Battery Mart battery but I do not know how old) on the charger yesterday but today it still won't even turn the lights on when I turn the key today. I need to check for a blown fuse but I suspect I will be buying a battery. It's partially my fault because I have battery tenders on all my bikes but this one lol.

 

[Thumperama]

I found this on the Husaberg forum and it does an excellent job of explaining some of the technical differences with the different battery options. It's up to you what would satisfy your needs and your budget. These types of threads (like threads on oil or tires) can quickly turn into a complete a waste of time due to overbearing opinions based more on what was read vs. real life experience.

As we're on batteries, here are some thoughts. Technical stuff first, and then some concrete products to look at

So the Shorai lithiums and lithium starter batteries in general are LiFePO₄ chemistry, or lithium ferrophosphate. Sometimes called lithium-iron but that's confusing IMO as it reads too similar to lithium-ion. Iron (Fe) vs. ion. (Even hard to type it correctly one after another!)

To distinguish from LiFePO₄: Lithium-ion is what's used in laptops, multicopters, electric cars etc., where charge capacity is supremely important. Li-Ion are not suitable for starter batteries in general. (Edit - LiFePO₄ is actually a subtype of Li-Ion, so in some confusing cases LiFePO₄ batteries are sold as Li-Ion :/ ... And to further add to the confusion you CAN use the types commonly known as li-ion to start a vehicle ...)
About LiFePO₄
LiFePO₄ is similar to lithium-ion overall, but lithium-ion aren't suitable as starter batteries as they are too sensitive - mechanical or internal electrical failure can and will cause fire in lithium-ion batteries. LiFePO₄ has significantly less charge-per-weight than lithum-ion (Ah per kg) and somewhat less max-current-per-weight than lithium-ion (burst Amperes per kg), but LiFePO₄ still has MUCH higher max-current capacity and also higher charge capacity than any form of lead-acid batteries.
LiFePO₄ batteries also in theory are specified for much more charge cycles before they go kaput compared to lead-acid, meaning that the charge-discharge lifetime is something like 5-10x greater - in theory. This means that LiFePO₄ should be cheaper in the long run. However they still aren't really proven in the context of reliability as starter batteries in a hostile environment (on a dirt bike in the cold) ...
One further advantage of LiFePO₄ is that they have only very little self-discharge, meaning they mostly stay charged on a shelf or in a bike. IOW don't need a maintenance charger as badly as the lead-acid batteries.
Besides LiFePO₄ batteries not being FULLY proven in the field yet, they get sluggish in the cold. When it's quite cold they'll be slow to start. However! They warm up when current is drawn from them, and I've read multiple reports that simply having the headlight on for a short while is enough to warm the battery to where it will put out its rated current. (Charge is preserved, a cold battery just won't give it out as fast.)
Finally, like most other battery types, LiFePO₄ don’t like to go under a certain voltage threshold (undercharge). Significant undercharging can/will kill cells. Additionally it’s considered ideal to balance the voltage of the cells in a LiFePO₄ battery (not considered strictly necessary as they seem to stay in balance pretty well, but would prolong lifetime in cases where they don’t).
Often LiFePO₄ batteries are distinguished by a series/parallel scheme. xSyP means that the battery is x cells in series (x cells “high”) and y cells in parallel (y “wide”). For our purposes series height determines voltage and the parallel width determines current output. A 4S LiFePO₄ battery is the correct voltage for a motorcycle ~12V lead-acid charging system. What width you want is determined by how much current you need to start your bike, and what the cells your battery is made of are capable of. Usually for ‘Bergs you’d go for 4S2P to exceed OEM current capacity with significantly less weight. If you calculate things a bit then you can in some cases go to 4S1P to save further weight. The difference is so small that I’d go with the nice 4S2P overkill. The P value isn’t the arbiter of what the battery can do - you want to look at the “burst discharge current” rating, or similar. (Not the constant current output! This is a much lower number. If the burst current is not specified, look elsewhere.)

Summary - LiFePO₄ vs. lead-acid
So to sum up - the three advantages of lead-acid batteries are lower up-front costs, fully known properties and behavior, and somewhat more peace of mind in very cold environments.
The LiFePO₄ chemistry's chief advantages are MUCH less weight for the same starting current - something like one-fifth? - plus they need less maintenance charging.
Slightly more tenuous advantages are the theoretical lower lifetime costs due to the higher charge-cycle count. And that LiFePO₄ cells can also have a greater charge capacity per weight if you're prepared to pay for that. Could be good for e.g. long-range adventure bikes.
But from what I know, I’m going to try LiFePO₄ next.

Specific manufacturers, cells, and batteries
Making a REALLY GOOD LiFePO₄ cell takes some pretty advanced manufacturing capacity and R&D. As far as I know they’re actually made with nanoscale wire fleece coated with very precisely formulated materials. A123 Systems are reputed to make by far the best cells - being more reliable and have more output current and charge capacity per weight. Shorai batteries are not made with A123 cells, they are Shorai’s own (and Shorai use ‘pouch cells’ which make for a slightly smaller battery but according to specs I’ve read they aren’t as good electrically).
There are two battery series that I know of that are made with A123 cells: Full Spectrum Power’s Pulse series, and a123rc.com’s batteries.
Pulse P1 | Light Weight Lithium Motorcyle Battery | Full Spectrum | fsbattery
http://www.a123rc.com/
Full Spectrum Power use officially-sourced A123 cells, pack them in a strong case, and have battery protection electronics included - a board that cuts the battery out when undercharged, and they have a facility for balancing the cells (nice to have). All very good ideas according to what I know. They’re somewhat expensive though! BUT if these batteries will actually last as long as LiFePO₄ batteries are supposed to last - 5x as long iirc? 10x? - then they’re good value. The Pulse P1 batteries are 4S1P, somewhere around 125 CCA. Pulse P2 is double that. Given that these are high-quality cells, you can probably trust the CCA rating pretty well.
A123RC are supposedly selling not-quite-A-grade batteries that have failed the most exacting tests at the factory. This means slightly less capacity, 5% iirc? That’s OK anyway as you’re already tens of percent above OEM lead-acid current capacity to begin with with most LiFePO₄ batteries … And still, they’re A123 cells which are very well made to begin with. They can be had in a hard case, but they lack undervoltage protection and don’t come with a cell balancing tap. (A123RC do make custom batteries though, so maybe they can be had with a balancing tap if desired … I’m not 100% convinced it’s worth it. If it cost little, then yes.) The A123RC’s are quite cheap! The site seems down atm, but iirc they had 4S1P ~125 CCA batteries for something like $50-60! Which is cheap enough to try … Just need to make sure they fit the battery box - I’m pretty sure they would, as LiFePO₄ batteries are quite small to begin with. Can be a little tallish though, so need to check specs.

That’s it Hope this is useful to someone

 

[Theo]

from the Husabeg forum:
A 4S LiFePO₄ battery is the correct voltage for a motorcycle ~12V lead-acid charging system.

As a matter of fact, in Ballistic bateries the cells are 4 or a multiple of it:

and here they say that the Ballistic Professional Intelligent Digital Balance Charger has "the ability to charge each cell or series individually."

Saving 5lbs on a 350lb bike also makes no sense to me. It's still a heavy pig of a dirtbike. Or as we tend to say, it is what it is. LOL. Let's see, at $250 that's $50 a pound to save weight, which is not in my reality.

I had a friend who had an SM 610. He spent much money trying to lessen its weight: he removed the battery and installed a little capacitor in lieu. He used to start the bike (making great efforts) with a kickstarter he installed. He removed the honk, the passenger footpegs, etc. and, eventually, he said that, considering the weight removed and the weight added, the bike was something like 13 kg lighter. He was jealous of his bike and never let me ride it, but I got on it without starting it and it really seemed to be much lighter than mine, which was totally OEM. He said that, if you remove a gram here and another there, in the end you'll have removed kilos. Yes, a CRF is lighter, but its reliability is much worse.

When my OEM battery failed, I installed the lithium one both in order to save weight and to fix an issue: the older one was all dented and, at that time, I didn't use to have trackdays and to jump in dirt sections of SM tracks. I thought that landing from jumps would have been even worse for the battery. The little Ballistic is protected by polystirene sheets (since it's small, there's room for them) and doesn't have the same problem. Furthermore, since it's dry, there's no possibility of acid leaks.

 

[Coop610]

I am not concerned about weight savings, these are heavy bikes and for the type of riding I do, I doubt I really doubt I would even notice a lighter battery lol. I just ordered a Yuasa yesterday, I have had good success with them so we'll see.

 

[Grid Runner]

My battery was dead as well, so I went to the dealer today and picked up this puppy for about 160.

It's smaller than the existing battery was, and amazingly light. It's almost comically light. Shit, my Lipo for my Traxxas Slash weighs more than this thing does. It's easily 1/5th the weight of the battery I took out of the Husky.
Amazing. Bike fired right up, too. :thumb
It's got a pretty cool battery indicator on the top as well where you can see how full the battery is.
The box is the same size as the battery that came out of the Husky.

 

[Grid Runner]

 

[Brzoza]

Picked up the same battery, It's tiny. 8.8 lbs/4kg lighter than stock. Works so far.
WPS and te630 stock:

 

[CJBROWN]

Uhm, those two lipo's are obviously not the same battery models, right?

OTG -

 

[268fords]

I've had good luck so far with my shorai. I've had it for about 2 years so far. No trickle charger what so ever. The starter spins a lot faster than the yuasa did. When it's cold, I have yet to try to start without bumping the start button 2 or 3 times to warm it up, so I'm unsure of cold cold starting. It's being tested right now for long term storage since I had my wrist operated on. I took the bike for a 20 mile ride the day before surgery, and put it on the stand and disconnected the battery. I will check it in a couple months when I'm able to turn a wrench!

 

[reveille]

Hope your recovery goes well.

 

[Kam1]

Shorai in my 04 tc450 3 years still great, when cold starting crank it 3 or 4 times to warm it up and fires better than lead acid. Lead Acid batteries lasted 2 seasons tops- bike vibrates, real rocky rough terrain, you could shake one of them and hear the plates rattle.

 

[Brzoza]

Uhm, those two lipo's are obviously not the same battery models, right?

OTG -

The LiPo from GridRunner has the battery tester button slightly lowered, but they look similar in size.

After installing the new battery it's nice to have free space under the seat for a little compressor I'm using.