2009 Baja 1000

[Husky Relic]

Integrity

Switching bikes is against the rules. It is a major infraction and cannot be condoned or excused under any circumstance. It degrades the spirit of the competition and the honor and sense of achievement of those that play be the rules get from simply finishing.

I'm not certain what happened in the case of 349X and I don't want to know. This isn't just about 349X.

In my view there is only one way to approach this subject. With Integrity. I've been told integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

I have had teams switch bikes on me in compeition and nothing gets me more upset. I don't want to hear "we were out of the race anyway" and "it wouldn't matter, no one would care". It does matter and I care if no one else. It's Baja and it's "Man and Machine" (not "Machines") or so I've been told.

Scot

 

[life_in_sepia]

It's hard to argue with the logic of the post above. But the post seems to imply that there was some serious moral lapse by those involved. I don't agree with that. There's a bunch of guys riding bikes in the desert, against a clock. A non-competitive team falls out early-on with a mechanical and decides to give it another go on a different bike, so others on the team can have a taste of the baja racing experience. Big deal. While not condoning the action, I fail to see how anyone was hurt by it (my measure of serious moral lapses). And if they get penalized by SCORE, that seems appropriate too. But I, for one, fail to see any serious moral infraction. I speed every single day of the week, usually intentionally. Is that a lapse of Integrety? I got a ticket today for walking my dog off-leash (and I knew the law). Is that a lapse of Integrity? In sum, there is moral culpability anytime anyone intentionally breaks "the rules." But the degree of moral cuplability is a very subjective issue. And I appreciate that, as a racer, your view is different than mine -- just want to post another (probably biased) view on the subject. It was not the right thing to do, in my opinion. But let's keep the moral issue in perspective, in my opinion. Regards, Ed

 

[HuskyDude]

I've been told integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

 

[Husky Relic]

It's hard to argue with the logic of the post above. But the post seems to imply that there was some serious moral lapse by those involved. I don't agree with that. There's a bunch of guys riding bikes in the desert, against a clock. A non-competitive team falls out early-on with a mechanical and decides to give it another go on a different bike, so others on the team can have a taste of the baja racing experience. Big deal. While not condoning the action, I fail to see how anyone was hurt by it (my measure of serious moral lapses). And if they get penalized by SCORE, that seems appropriate too. But I, for one, fail to see any serious moral infraction. I speed every single day of the week, usually intentionally. Is that a lapse of Integrety? I got a ticket today for walking my dog off-leash (and I knew the law). Is that a lapse of Integrity? In sum, there is moral culpability anytime anyone intentionally breaks "the rules." But the degree of moral cuplability is a very subjective issue. And I appreciate that, as a racer, your view is different than mine -- just want to post another (probably biased) view on the subject. It was not the right thing to do, in my opinion. But let's keep the moral issue in perspective, in my opinion. Regards, Ed

That's the problem in America today. You can justify just about any action by the degree of whether it is right or wrong. I'm saying there is no shades of right and wrong expecially when the rule book says its wrong. To justify the action any other way is just not acceptable. Thanks for mentioning you have are not a racer. I can understand why this subject may be hard for you to understand. In racing all you have are the rules of competition that one must follow. Anything outside those rules are against the spirit of the competition and compromise the integrity of the race. This is my point. Having said that I'm sure many otehrs will explain it away as a momentary lapse of reason and maybe it is just as Life in Sepia has. That's too bad. There were dozens and dozens of other competitors that broke down at the Baja 1000 this past weekend. None of them switched machines and tried to make it to the finish. I applaud those teams that accepetd their fate and chose to honor the spirit of the competition.

 

[Dirty Bikes]

I totally agree with Scot.

But what I find funny is that we are talking about integrity and the Baja. A race that has rewarded cheaters for years and when SCORE finally decided to enforce the rules last year there was a massive uproar.

I am not saying everyone that does well at Baja is a cheater but rather the rules have never really been enforced so that just leads to more rule breaking. I think based on the large number of winners breaking rules like cutting the course and massive speeding on public roads this is really not a big deal assuming they team would have removed themselves as a finishing team had they actually finished.

 

[life_in_sepia]

Those are all good points. Thanks. Ed

 

[Husky Relic]

and now I'll shut up!

One last thing. I mentioned in my first email this issue was not strictly about 349X. Certainly I saw the posts on Thumpertalk and felt compelled to speak out on the topic. I'm not sure what 349X did and if he did swtich bikes he is in some pretty good company. It only really caught my attention because it was a Husqvarna Team. I can name names of heroes and legends who have pulled the same stunt. All guys who I still deeply respect and admire. They had a momentary lapse of judgement. Their integrity was compromised(as non of us are perfect, myself at the top of the list) for a brief moment. If they had to do it over again, I'm sure they wouldn't have. I'm talking about former Baja champions so 349X if they did switch bikes is in pretty good company.

My only purpose is to speak out in the interest of fair play and the sporting spirit and a code of conduct amongst off road racers. I always viewed racing more than just a profession but a discipline. Much like martial arts. Their must be a code between combatants to set the rules of the game. Once set, the framework provides for a level of competitive vigor that can otherwise not be drawn out.

So, please 349X and the members of that team please don't read anymore than this into my original post. This isn't about you specifically.
It only allows me to discuss the topic. Hope to see you guys back down in Baja again. I'm sure you will find success next time!

 

[Coffee]

This is a baja 1000 race report thread, focusing on a bike that some members of cafe husky were on - 349X. Someone joined the forum to post a link to another site where it clearly showed 2 different bikes with 349X written on them. Many people following this thread/race were confused and they deserved insight as to the legitimacy of that link and pictures.

My prior post was intended to let the people know that the situation did in fact occur - the bikes were switched - and a clue as to what may have been the reasoning, those people deserved that information. I intentionally kept it as neutral as possible because presenting things in a neutral manner conveys information as opposed to people reading 1/2 of a post and getting upset without getting the entire message.

 

[Coffee]

Thanks for posting Scot, and I agree with the points you made.

I'm extremely familiar with the concept of racing, fair play, and adhering to both the rules and the spirit of the rules. I used to be quite heavily involved racing, in a completely different sport. Switching bikes should not have happened for any reason.

...Having said that I'm sure many others will explain it away as a momentary lapse of reason...

What bothers me most, based on extensive communication with people involved, is that the word 'momentary' is superfluous.

While Mike did indeed plan things out on cafe husky, it is *extremely* clear that planning is not his strong point. As such, he will not be planning any more events on Cafe Husky in the future.

 

[LRPct]

Switching bikes is against the rules. It is a major infraction and cannot be condoned or excused under any circumstance. It degrades the spirit of the competition and the honor and sense of achievement of those that play be the rules get from simply finishing.

I'm not certain what happened in the case of 349X and I don't want to know. This isn't just about 349X.

In my view there is only one way to approach this subject. With Integrity. I've been told integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

I have had teams switch bikes on me in compeition and nothing gets me more upset. I don't want to hear "we were out of the race anyway" and "it wouldn't matter, no one would care". It does matter and I care if no one else. It's Baja and it's "Man and Machine" (not "Machines") or so I've been told.

Scot

I understand the point and you have the right to your opinion. I personally, ever since I started racing at 5YO have never worried about what or how the people BEHIND me were doing. Maybe it's because to me, does'nt matter if you're not racing for the win, or maybe it's because my parents taught me to worry about MYSELF and how and what I was doing and not be a busy body worrying about the actions of others that aren't affecting me. Kinda like what they say. "What YOU eat doesn't make ME crap"

For me anyway, so much has to do with INTENTION. From what has been shown, it's not like anyone was trying to "put one over" on anyone or SCORE. It was just guys trying to salvage some kind of positive experience for a few guys that race very little and for some, may NEVER have the chance again to race in Mexico. In a case like that, even as a competitor I would have done almost anything to help someone else make sure they get something positive outa shleping all the way down there.

Even working in racing most my life I've still always have enjoyed the "fun" part of it the most. If I happen to jump into some kinda amateur event in a sprint format and be lucky enough to pull away from everyone, I'd much rather pull into the pits and get back in the field and find someone to dice with for awhile just for the fun of it. In a pro event, if someone wins by cheating and they lie to cover it up, then that's not right and they should be held accountable. If they have had problems and they are laps down and out of contention and the only way for them to get back out and gain experience and track time is for them to do something with the equipment that might not follow the rules, well then have at it... As long as what they have out there isn't gonna endanger me or other competitors, who cares. If they are being upfront about it and not taking $$$$ or food outa someone elses mouth, let them have the experience of RUNNING...Just to be clear, like I said it's about INTENT. If they say yes we technically are breaking the rules and we just want track time, we're so far off we just want the experience. If something happens to the whole field in front of us, obviously we should be disqualified, and we'll DQ ourselves if we have to. THAT'S being upfront to me and NOT cheating, and if anything, it shows me even greater competion spirit and integrity from them in that kinda case. Lying to WIN is a WHOLE DIFFERENT thing and is just not what seemed to be going on in the case talked about here.

We're not performong brain surgey here, or finding a cure for cancer, or even racing on live TV for millions of $$$$$$. It's racing. It's SUPPOSED to be fun FIRST. But, that's just my opinion, and I can also see how some others may see it differently. And that is perfectly fine. In the end it won't bother me very much either way though, cause what YOU eat don't make ME crap... just have fun and be safe...

 

[Motosportz]

My only purpose is to speak out in the interest of fair play and the sporting spirit and a code of conduct amongst off road racers. I always viewed racing more than just a profession but a discipline. Much like martial arts. Their must be a code between combatants to set the rules of the game. Once set, the framework provides for a level of competitive vigor that can otherwise not be drawn out.

At some point we all know the "right" thing to do. Choosing to do it is the key.

 

[Husky Relic]

I understand the point and you have the right to your opinion. I personally, ever since I started racing at 5YO have never worried about what or how the people BEHIND me were doing. Maybe it's because to me, does'nt matter if you're not racing for the win, or maybe it's because my parents taught me to worry about MYSELF and how and what I was doing and not be a busy body worrying about the actions of others that aren't affecting me. Kinda like what they say. "What YOU eat doesn't make ME crap"

For me anyway, so much has to do with INTENTION. From what has been shown, it's not like anyone was trying to "put one over" on anyone or SCORE. It was just guys trying to salvage some kind of positive experience for a few guys that race very little and for some, may NEVER have the chance again to race in Mexico. In a case like that, even as a competitor I would have done almost anything to help someone else make sure they get something positive outa shleping all the way down there.

Even working in racing most my life I've still always have enjoyed the "fun" part of it the most. If I happen to jump into some kinda amateur event in a sprint format and be lucky enough to pull away from everyone, I'd much rather pull into the pits and get back in the field and find someone to dice with for awhile just for the fun of it. In a pro event, if someone wins by cheating and they lie to cover it up, then that's not right and they should be held accountable. If they have had problems and they are laps down and out of contention and the only way for them to get back out and gain experience and track time is for them to do something with the equipment that might not follow the rules, well then have at it... As long as what they have out there isn't gonna endanger me or other competitors, who cares. If they are being upfront about it and not taking $$$$ or food outa someone elses mouth, let them have the experience of RUNNING...Just to be clear, like I said it's about INTENT. If they say yes we technically are breaking the rules and we just want track time, we're so far off we just want the experience. If something happens to the whole field in front of us, obviously we should be disqualified, and we'll DQ ourselves if we have to. THAT'S being upfront to me and NOT cheating, and if anything, it shows me even greater competion spirit and integrity from them in that kinda case. Lying to WIN is a WHOLE DIFFERENT thing and is just not what seemed to be going on in the case talked about here.

We're not performong brain surgey here, or finding a cure for cancer, or even racing on live TV for millions of $$$$$$. It's racing. It's SUPPOSED to be fun FIRST. But, that's just my opinion, and I can also see how some others may see it differently. And that is perfectly fine. In the end it won't bother me very much either way though, cause what YOU eat don't make ME crap... just have fun and be safe...

Strike another vote up for the new morality in America. Rules don't matter. A Code of Conduct doesn't matter. A sense of fair play doesn't matter. Honor doesn't matter. Having fun matters most. Explains a lot about our current state of affairs in America.

I never said doing the right thing is also the "fun" thing to do. I just said it was the right thing to do.

 

[LRPct]

Strike another vote up for the new morality in America. Rules don't matter. A Code of Conduct doesn't matter. A sense of fair play doesn't matter. Honor doesn't matter. Having fun matters most. Explains a lot about our current state of affairs in America.

I never said doing the right thing is also the "fun" thing to do. I just said it was the right thing to do.

I guess we just won't see the same about racing just for the sake racing. I just don't see how someone racing in the back of the pack has ANY effect on world affairs IF they are honest about what they are doing. Like saying, yes I changed bikes, and I am no longer classified in the standings, and I will NOT ACCEPT any "prizes" but I'd still like to run around the desert hundreds of miles behind everyone else.

I mean jeez, if you're honest about what you're doing there's no less "integrity" in it. I guess that means I'm a moral deficient that does not care about what someone else does when it has no effect on me. I even don't care who someone else chooses to love or marry no matter what their race, creed, or sex is...Or even if they choose to race laps down with not so legal equipment while they are intermingling like that. I guess thats just me.. Live and let live. I have bigger things to worry about in my life than who my neighbor marries or if they chose to finish hours or days behind the rest of the racers while on an "illegal" bike.

If they were try and to cheat and claim a win and that they did no such thing when IN FACT they did, well then throw them to the lions..

AS much as I love racing even, and how much I've poured into it and sacraficed for, life is not racing and racing is not life. Even if they do have similarities and lessons to be taught through them.

The world will not be any better or any worse of a place, our soldiers and families wont stop being killed in Afganistan or Iraq for no good reason, and children won't be negleted and abused any more or less because someone switched bikes in one race to finish in 2,122nd place in some desert race.. EVEN the Baja 1000..

Just being honest about what one is doing and one's intentions is enough for me when there is no harm being inflicted on another PERSON. But then again, my way of thinking is responsible for all the plight in the world. OOOOK...

 

[Husky Relic]

I guess we just won't see the same about racing just for the sake racing. I just don't see how someone racing in the back of the pack has ANY effect on world affairs IF they are honest about what they are doing. Like saying, yes I changed bikes, and I am no longer classified in the standings, and I will NOT ACCEPT any "prizes" but I'd still like to run around the desert hundreds of miles behind everyone else.

I mean jeez, if you're honest about what you're doing there's no less "integrity" in it. I guess that means I'm a moral deficient that does not care about what someone else does when it has no effect on me. I even don't care who someone else chooses to love or marry no matter what their race, creed, or sex is...Or even if they choose to race laps down with not so legal equipment while they are intermingling like that. I guess thats just me.. Live and let live. I have bigger things to worry about in my life than who my neighbor marries or if they chose to finish hours or days behind the rest of the racers while on an "illegal" bike.

If they were try and to cheat and claim a win and that they did no such thing when IN FACT they did, well then throw them to the lions..

AS much as I love racing even, and how much I've poured into it and sacraficed for, life is not racing and racing is not life. Even if they do have similarities and lessons to be taught through them.

The world will not be any better or any worse of a place, our soldiers and families wont stop being killed in Afganistan or Iraq for no good reason, and children won't be negleted and abused any more or less because someone switched bikes in one race to finish in 2,122nd place in some desert race.. EVEN the Baja 1000..

Just being honest about what one is doing and one's intentions is enough for me when there is no harm being inflicted on another PERSON. But then again, my way of thinking is responsible for all the plight in the world. OOOOK...

I didn't say all the "plight" in the world, just some of the "plight".

 

[Motosportz]

A lot of people take this race very seriously. If you want to ride Baja go ride Baja. If you want to race a sanctioned race you must do so within the rules like you expect everyone else to. Seems simple to me. there was lots of pre-running and support trips to do. It's not like people are not full of Baja once it is done. What if you crashed into someone ending their chances at the race? How pissed would you be if you guys had finished the race on the original bike and someone else knocked you off the podium only to find out later they had swapped bikes. We assume your intentions were good, make the best out of the race so people can get a taste but it is not what you signed up for. It's a race, people have big money tied up in it. Sucks you guys did not get to finish and do well but thats the dice you roll at any race, specifically at Baja. I don't think anyone had malicious intentions but that is not the point. Mike has been on the other side of this discussion many times and should have known this would not end well. The web is already a buzz about it and husky, it's not good or fun and games to many. Doing the right thing always ends better int he long run.

Just voicing my opinion on the matter and not pointing fingers or telling others how to conduct themselves.

 

[LRPct]

A lot of people take this race very seriously. If you want to ride Baja go ride Baja. If you want to race a sanctioned race you must do so within the rules like you expect everyone else to. Seems simple to me. there was lots of pre-running and support trips to do. It's not like people are not full of Baja once it is done. What if you crashed into someone ending their chances at the race? How pissed would you be if you guys had finished the race on the original bike and someone else knocked you off the podium only to find out later they had swapped bikes. We assume your intentions were good, make the best out of the race so people can get a taste but it is not what you signed up for. It's a race, people have big money tied up in it. Sucks you guys did not get to finish and do well but thats the dice you roll at any race, specifically at Baja. I don't think anyone had malicious intentions but that is not the point. Mike has been on the other side of this discussion many times and should have known this would not end well. The web is already a buzz about it and husky, it's not good or fun and games to many. Doing the right thing always ends better int he long run.

Just voicing my opinion on the matter and not pointing fingers or telling others how to conduct themselves.

Well, see there you said it. Something about knocking someone else off a podium. What I AM talking about is someone running DFL, not hiding anything from officials. Basically, just doing laps. Like in an asphalt race and someone ignores black flags, then scoring stops scoring them. Then basically all the are running for is experience/testing/fun.. Just to be clear THAT is the kind of situation I am talking about. Not taking "prizes" or podiums away from anyone. I don't know how much clearer I could have been about that in my posts.

Closer to a situation like this I am saying, IF someone makes it CLEAR to officials themselves, we switched, we DQ ourselves if we have to, but we're gonna ride to the finish.

I can't speak to the exact 349x situation cause I wasn't there. So I won't hold judgement on anyone. Might be good for anyone that wasn't there to do the same.

Am I AT LEAST clear about my running openly and honestly for DFL for no podium or prizes, not interfering with someone else race position now???

 

[LRPct]

I didn't say all the "plight" in the world, just some of the "plight".

I guess you're right, and some of the other "plight" can be attributed to only black / white thinking, intolerence, and thinking that we know what is best for others so we are even... So a truce then...??..

 

[Husky Relic]

One last rant

I realize that I have crossed the line into ranting. Sorry for the feeble display of bravado. Let me explain my passion on this topic.

1.)As a young rider I dreamed of winning Baja someday. Back in that time only two riders were allowed per team and the bikes were dodgy at best;trying to hold one together for 1000 miles was a small miracle. I broke down in my first three Baja attempts two times never even seeing the bike.

2.) Baja for me was the truest test of man and machine. Starting and finishing on the same bike was at the core of the race. Just to finish was a remarkable accomplishment(rember only two riders per team) and since in the early years I built my own bikes I was very respectful of the hard work and dedication that took.

3.) I know what it feels like to have a fellow competitor switch bikes. It sucks! That has always stuck with me.

4.) Even in the amateur ranks; if a motorcyle/car/truck/atv continues racing after it is technically disqualified then it affects everyone else in the race:
Every driver/rider that had to pass/negotiate/take into account the "replacement" bike. Every course marshall, flagger, score keeper, sweep crew that had to account for the bike. Almost everyone in the event is affected at one level or another. Baja Racing/Off Road Racing is like an all day long plane crash, a billion different seperate events and yet all connected.

5.) I'm sorry LRP if I offended you in any way. You seem to be coming from a good place in the heart. I respect your right to your opinion. I hope you know my last post was an attempt at humor. This rant isn't about any individual or team its about a behavior and a way of making sense out of what small affairs in the world we can control like a so called sporting event.

6.) I'm just not sure I want to live in a world that wants to cut corners off what a finish, or may you be ever so blessed an overall victory may actually mean in terms of a sense of accomplishment. Anything that diminishes that I am against.

 

[Motosportz]

Well, see there you said it. Something about knocking someone else off a podium. What I AM talking about is someone running DFL, not hiding anything from officials. Basically, just doing laps. Like in an asphalt race and someone ignores black flags, then scoring stops scoring them. Then basically all the are running for is experience/testing/fun.. Just to be clear THAT is the kind of situation I am talking about. Not taking "prizes" or podiums away from anyone. I don't know how much clearer I could have been about that in my posts.

Closer to a situation like this I am saying, IF someone makes it CLEAR to officials themselves, we switched, we DQ ourselves if we have to, but we're gonna ride to the finish.

I can't speak to the exact 349x situation cause I wasn't there. So I won't hold judgement on anyone. Might be good for anyone that wasn't there to do the same.

Am I AT LEAST clear about my running openly and honestly for DFL for no podium or prizes, not interfering with someone else race position now???

Relics #4 is what i am talking about. I understand you 100%. there is no provision for what you are saying at Baja there for should not be done. My opinion only.

Even in the amateur ranks; if a motorcyle/car/truck/atv continues racing after it is technically disqualified then it affects everyone else in the race:
Every driver/rider that had to pass/negotiate/take into account the "replacement" bike. Every course marshall, flagger, score keeper, sweep crew that had to account for the bike. Almost everyone in the event is affected at one level or another. Baja Racing/Off Road Racing is like an all day long plane crash, a billion different seperate events and yet all connected.

 

[Husky Relic]

I guess you're right, and some of the other "plight" can be attributed to only black / white thinking, intolerence, and thinking that we know what is best for others so we are even... So a truce then...??..

Hey Buddy,

I never said I knew what was best for others just that I read the rules and I agreed to play by them..........Truce!