2014 TE310 Bad ECU?

[Trenchcoat85]

also: dartyppyt had an excellent suggestion about checking the wires individually on the ECU plug to see if they are snapped in. where did we land on that?

and the ECU-in-the-freezer idea (spray wd-40 on the pins first) is worth a try. sorta- because your ecu is fine, and works good in another bike.

 

[jxs2151]

your frikken ECU is fine. relax about it; or borrow one to reassure yourself. or see if the dealer has the old one you can borrow. After all, it ran a bike at Hall's.

I know what you're saying, I just keep troubleshooting up to that ECU. Voltage going in, no voltage coming out.

Just because you have continuity in a length of wire does not mean it's good (it just means it's not bad- there is a difference). inspect the wiring for rubs. thoroughly. just like 6 months ago.

If one has continuity and no short to ground, I'm not sure how that cannot be good. I have thoroughly inspected the wiring, short of tearing off the entire harness.

You may have to also have a plug in the head to see consistent sparks (IOW, use 2 spark plugs) but I'm not sure- This would only be true if the ECU also uses the MAP sensor for timing. ground the plug. and buy a new coil instead of an ECU if you wanna buy something on a whim.

I've grounded it well, but the big thing is that I am seeing no or very intermittent voltage to the stick coil. If I were measuring voltage to the stick coil I would have no problem buying that and seeing if that works.

I'll say it again: check for a sheared rotor key.

If the key were sheared I would still have spark, just not at the right time, no?

why do you think you have an electrical problem and not, say, a clogged injector or bad fuel pump, filter etc? is it the one spark thing? just for grins, check your FI system: spray pattern, pressure, volume. Of course the issue arose (or got worse) when you took the tank off- which probably means electrical but still could be FI. It also hints that you made it worse somehow (not judging... but it is a clue to use)

Because I have no spark and no voltage to the stick coil.

get a good, "bottom-shelf" multi-meter to go along with your analog meter. $20-$30. The FREE ones at Harbor Freight are semi-adequate.

I have a decent DMM that I use to measure. I use the analog MM for AC measurements.

your bike cannot "adjust itself" on this open-loop fuel injection system. the O2 sensor is not used AFAIK.

I thought the same thing until I found this:

"According to the guys at Café Husky:
The EFI systems have an atmospheric pressure sensors that compensated for altitude."
and this:

"It has a manifold air pressure sensor and an absolute air pressure sensor to determine the proper fueling at all altitudes."

the "fan temp sensor" in the radiator hose is NOT the the Coolant Temperature Sensor in the cylinder, on xlite redheads. But I'm guessing you replaced your CTS (that's good- it's a known associate of weird-ass problems); but if not- replace it now. <$20.

I've replaced the CTS in the recent past, made sure I had the right color one.

Test your TPS: put an ohm meter between one of the outside leads and the center lead- twist the throttle and see that the resistance goes smoothly up (or down if you used the other lead) and back down again. Then (for grins) measure the outside leads to see that the static resistance is the same as the high reading and doesn't change with the throttle. I don't know the numbers; I'd *guess* 10ohms-2000ohms. you tell me. hell, maybe it's 5K to 20K ohms.

That's a good idea once I get a doggone spark.

I appreciate your thoughts and ideas on this, gonna go back and recheck the wiring between the kill switch and the ECU. If I have an intermittent short there it would cause the no voltage situation.[/quote]

 

[jxs2151]

also: dartyppyt had an excellent suggestion about checking the wires individually on the ECU plug to see if they are snapped in. where did we land on that?

and the ECU-in-the-freezer idea (spray wd-40 on the pins first) is worth a try. sorta- because your ecu is fine, and works good in another bike.

Thanks, I checked the seating of all of the wires on the ECU plug, with special attention to those I though most relevant.

I tried the ECU in the freezer thing and it's in my freezer right now for another try shortly.

 

[jxs2151]

1- The ECU receives input from the pulsar coil, telling it when to send voltage to the stick coil.

This is happening.

2- The ECU sounds out positive voltage to the stick coil at the timing dictated by the pulsar coil. The stick coil receives the negative voltage from ground.

This is not happening.

It could either be because the positive signal is not getting sent or the ground is bad on the stick coil.

If the positive signal is not getting sent it is either because the ECU is not outputting it because it is defective or being inhibited. The only way I can think that it is being inhibited is through the kill switch mechanism. The ways that could be happening are that the kill switch is closed, which I eliminated by unplugging the kill switch, or the kill switch wiring has a short to ground, which I need to thoroughly check.

I need to check the ground on the stick coil plug, which I cannot recollect if I checked.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

I know what you're saying, I just keep troubleshooting up to that ECU. Voltage going in, no voltage coming out.

that might be true- but you might be coming to the wrong conclusion (i.e., the ECU is faulty).

If one has continuity and no short to ground, I'm not sure how that cannot be good. I have thoroughly inspected the wiring, short of tearing off the entire harness.

easy: it's shorted to another conductor (wire). pretty common. inspect 'em.

I've grounded it well, but the big thing is that I am seeing no or very intermittent voltage to the stick coil. If I were measuring voltage to the stick coil I would have no problem buying that and seeing if that works.

quit trying to "buy it" and just try it. you have nothing to lose and it's easy. and it probably WON'T work- so what?


also the coil may not be energized the majority of the time.

If the key were sheared I would still have spark, just not at the right time, no?

wrong.

I thought the same thing until I found this:

"According to the guys at Café Husky:
The EFI systems have an atmospheric pressure sensors that compensated for altitude."
and this:

"It has a manifold air pressure sensor and an absolute air pressure sensor to determine the proper fueling at all altitudes."

you're misinterpreting the function or the quote. the ECU is NOT learning, it merely uses sensor info to go to a lookup table (AKA map). so at higher altitudes and warmer air (MAP and ATS) you get a instantaneous adjustment of the fuel spray depending on the TPS data. This is how all EFI works- open or closed loop.

also: MAP is manifold absolute pressure. there is only one sensor on your bike.

That's a good idea once I get a doggone spark.

you're stuck- so why not try it?

look... I agree with you that your problem is probably electrical (85% confidence) but I'm pretty sure it's not your ecu- based on Hall's testing. The ecu gets input from the CTS, TPS, MAP, ATS, CPS (trigger coil). it may not fire the coil as you're expecting. it's time to explore other possibilities (including the FI components). confirm your power relay circuit is delivering power to everything correctly, including the ecu.

I've never heard of this but maybe: a bad regulator might keep the ecu components from energizing. see post #21 from 7 months ago.

and I still think the post #22 list is valid.

I appreciate your thoughts and ideas on this, gonna go back and recheck the wiring between the kill switch and the ECU. If I have an intermittent short there it would cause the no voltage situation.

yep. you should do this. and then do the same thing everywhere else.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

1- The ECU receives input from the pulsar coil, telling it when to send voltage to the stick coil.

This is happening.

2- The ECU sounds out positive voltage to the stick coil at the timing dictated by the pulsar coil. The stick coil receives the negative voltage from ground.

This is not happening.

It could either be because the positive signal is not getting sent or the ground is bad on the stick coil.

If the positive signal is not getting sent it is either because the ECU is not outputting it because it is defective or being inhibited. The only way I can think that it is being inhibited is through the kill switch mechanism. The ways that could be happening are that the kill switch is closed, which I eliminated by unplugging the kill switch, or the kill switch wiring has a short to ground, which I need to thoroughly check.

I need to check the ground on the stick coil plug, which I cannot recollect if I checked.

yeah, definitely check that ground. definitely. I suggested that back in September 2016, post #13 so I'm semi-surprised this is still on the to-do list.

The only way I can think that it is being inhibited is through the kill switch mechanism.

or it's programmed that way, or the ecu is not powered, or the ecu is getting wrong/missing info, or there is a wiring problem, or the signal is not what you're expecting, or the plug is bad, or the coil is bad, or the cps is bad, or the key is sheared,...

your shit don't work. time to step out of the box and try other ideas.

instead of thinking the problem is "the coil is not getting a signal, toss the ECU", go back to "my bike doesn't run" and try different ideas until you get to "there is no spark". hell, start from the beginning: use starter fluid and an open mind.

 

[jxs2151]

quit trying to "buy it" and just try it. you have nothing to lose and it's easy. and it probably WON'T work- so what?

Haha, you're the one that recommended doing this very thing.

 

[jxs2151]

that might be true- but you might be coming to the wrong conclusion (IE, the ECU is faulty).

Agreed, I am doing everything I can to figure out the alternatives.

easy: it's shorted to another conductor (wire). pretty common. inspect 'em.

If a wire has continuity and is not shorting to ground, it really doesn't matter as far as getting a signal, if they are touching another wire. The very definition of shorting is positive to ground. If a positive wire is touching another positive wire, the *proper* signal (voltage level, timing) may be affected but it would not inhibit the signal.

quit trying to "buy it" and just try it. you have nothing to lose and it's easy. and it probably WON'T work- so what?

Noted earlier that it was your suggestion to do just this.


also the coil may not be energized the majority of the time.

wrong.

If I can see the flywheel spinning when cranking, the woodruff key is not sheared completely.

you're misinterpreting the function or the quote. the ECU is NOT learning, it merely uses sensor info to go to a lookup table (AKA map). so at higher altitudes and warmer air (MAP and ATS) you get a instantaneous adjustment of the fuel spray depending on the TPS data. This is how all EFI works- open or closed loop.

also: MAP is manifold absolute pressure. there is only one sensor on your bike.

I'm not sure the point of this. The bike adjusted itself for altitude.

you're stuck- so why not try it?

Because, at this point it is not related to the problem of no spark.

look... I agree with you that your problem is probably electrical (85% confidence) but I'm pretty sure it's not your ecu- based on Hall's testing. The ecu gets input from the CTS, TPS, MAP, ATS, CPS (trigger coil). it may not fire the coil as you're expecting. it's time to explore other possibilities (including the FI components). confirm your power relay circuit is delivering power to everything correctly, including the ecu.

I agree that it is highly unlikely that it's the ECU just like it was highly unlikely that it was when I sent it off for testing. Perhaps it's just the way I think things out when I was stating "I cannot think of anything else it could be besides the ECU"

I've never heard of this but maybe: a bad regulator might keep the ecu components from energizing. see post #21 from 7 months ago.

I thought about that. My understanding of the RR is that it provides DC power to the battery. As long as the battery has sufficient charge, the spark should occur.

and I still think the post #22 list is valid.

Which part?



yep. you should do this. and then do the same thing everywhere else.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Haha, you're the one that recommended doing this very thing.

?

what, in your own words, is the test you think I am recommending? (hint: it involves two spark plugs)
what do you think it will prove/disprove? (hint: whether or not the MAP is involved with spark timing; and it probably ain't)
how long would the test take you? (hint: less time then you've spent responding. <40secs)
why is this funny? do you see some dichotomy with an earlier statement?

A much smarter move would be to buy a new ECU.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Agreed, I am doing everything I can to figure out the alternatives.

No, you're trying very hard to blame your ECU. Hell, you've even titled this thread "bad ecu".

You ought to buy a new ECU.

If a wire has continuity and is not shorting to ground, it really doesn't matter as far as getting a signal, if they are touching another wire. The very definition of shorting is positive to ground. If a positive wire is touching another positive wire, the *proper* signal (voltage level, timing) may be affected but it would not inhibit the signal.

This is wrong on so many levels... I'm not even sure I should bother with it. And you're a ham, RF engineer, and an avionics tech- correct?

It's time to buy a new ECU.

If I can see the flywheel spinning when cranking, the woodruff key is not sheared completely.

Not only is this wrong, but if you can see the flywheel spinning... why in hell don't you just take the frikken crank nut off and LOOK at the damn key???? sheesh.

...or just buy a new ECU

I'm not sure the point of this. The bike adjusted itself for altitude.

the point is your statement: "Took the bike to CO around 10,000 ft. Started and let idle to adjust itself."
when I pointed out it's an open loop system and any "adjusting" is programmed in, you came back with some non-relevant TT quotes, which had some errors in 'em btw.

And none of this has anything to do with your spark problem. probably. I should have never brought this up; not only is this not relevant to your current problem, but it's also a distraction

But I'm surprised the TT guys didn't suggest buying a new ECU.

Because, at this point it is not related to the problem of no spark.

but... but, but, but, but- <sigh>
you're making zero progress.
try something new. anything. Hell, if you left your bike at the dealers last October you might be riding right now... ...and my blood pressure might be a few points lower.

Or you could buy a new ECU

Perhaps it's just the way I think things out when I was stating "I cannot think of anything else it could be besides the ECU"

your entire problem in a nutshell.

So buy a new ECU.

I thought about that. My understanding of the RR is that it provides DC power to the battery. As long as the battery has sufficient charge, the spark should occur.

while this is semi-true for most bikes, your "understanding" is very incomplete for our bikes. It's a weird design, and the factory manual does not mention this either, so I'm not sure my sarcasm is warranted [but it's too frikken late for me to reel it now]- however, I did line out my findings in post #21 and I explained how the regulator also controls the Power and DC relays.

so- read post #21 again. slowly.

And then buy a new ECU.

"...and I still think the post #22 list is valid."

Which part?

what the hell do you mean "which part"??
It's a list. The list part.
The one you ignored last September.
screw it; let me just cut 'n paste it here for you:

right now, here are my suspicions:

• bad coil. (take the plug/coil and hook it to another batt, put +12 and neg on it with plug grounded to the neg... then pull the coil negative wire off the battery. See 1 spark consistently? your coil is probably okay, I'd think. But hell- maybe this test would ruin it. btw, there might be some back emf during this test; it won't kill you.)
• bad pulse coil/stator (I've seen this here a few times)
• sheared rotor key (I've seen this here a few times)
• wiring short (I've seen this here more than a few times)
• bad spark plug (put it in your lawn mower plug cap and pull the cord... should spark all over. occasionally plugs get weird)
• 
• 
• 
• bad ecu (btw, that's a Euro TC250 ECU... no wonder I couldn't find it in Hall's USA database; and I've never heard of a bad ecu... or stick coil actually. Hey, what's your VIN?)

After you're done with this list, you should buy a new ECU.

...and it's gonna be super-ironic when the problem turns out to be the ECU

 

[jxs2151]

...

" buy a new coil instead of an ECU if you wanna buy something on a whim."

 

[Trenchcoat85]

" buy a new coil instead of an ECU if you wanna buy something on a whim."

so your take-away on that whole paragraph, where I suggested the slight possibility of the MAP sensor being part of the ignition sequence (and which it probably isn't) and so use 2 spark plugs for a spark test, was the last throw-away sentence? The one where I imply if you're gonna waste money, buying a coil would be better (because the coil has a better chance of being bad and is an order of magnitude cheaper than an ECU)? And that somehow is opposed to some other suggestion made? Whatever.

sheesh.

Buy a new ECU.