Am I asking too much of my batts/charging system?

[jeffchri]

Wanted a sanity check. I've been having some starting/power issues with my 2008 TE510 and I wanted to get some of y'all's thoughts.

I decided to go riding a few weeks ago. Up to that point, the bike sat in the garage for several months without being ridden but seemed to start fine. I trickle charged it for, oh, about 20 minutes and then left on a trail ride. Everything seemed fine at first - started right up each time. Over the course of about 3 hours, though, I had stopped and started quite a bit (with e-start) due to snowy conditions, chatting about first ride of the season, etc. and the riding speeds were very low. Then, I stalled it at point and when I went to start it, I couldn't ... didn't even turn over, though the dash lights lit up and it *sounded* like the fuel pump was still kinda running. Kick starting it didn't work either, though eventually bump starting did and I was fine.

Fast forward to this past weekend. I kept the bike on a trickle charger for the last 2 weeks, and everything seemed fine again - bike started like a champ. I rode the bike this weekend following my fiancee around as she did her first trials competition, and there was a LOT of stop/starting - like 30 stop/starts over 3 hours, with very little speed riding in between. That said, everything continued to work ... until I entered the Scott trial segment at the end, stalled hitting a stump and couldn't get it started again. Again, it sounded like the pump whirred up, but I couldn't get the motor to turn over with the starter, and the kickstart didn't yield anything either (nothing ever banged). Same deal again - it went from starting fine to not starting at all. I ended up having to walk out to the start/finish line and get some folks to help push the bike back. Really great ending. When I got home, I tested the voltage on the battery and it was about 12.4v. I trickled it overnight and it started fine this morning (didn't check batt voltage), with about 13.4v at rest and 14.5 with the motor at idle.

So a few questions:
a) in the second case (riding this past weekend), was I asking too much of the battery and charging system to expect this to have worked?
b) is it typical that this bike doesn't show any weakness in starting ... it just stops starting, so to speak?
c) does this sound like the battery is old and maybe needs replacing (it's the original and I've never been great at trickling it regularly)
d) and the decompress lever ... when I installed some clutch resevoir cover bling awhile back I didn't, um, reinstall this lever, so when I kickstart it I have to hammer down hard because it's still under compression ... so maybe this is why I couldn't kickstart it? Maybe the battery would have even been sufficient if I could have used the lever? Probably time to reinstall it ...

Any help appeciated - I can't trust this sucker in the backcountry until I can figure out definitively what's going on ...
- Jeff

p.s. might order a Turntech battery and play with using it - could just carry the 2.5 as a backup while I figure all this out!

 

[JoeT]

A:Maybe, once a battery starts down the "death spiral" the starting becomes more and more difficult as the battery loses the ability to hold capacity and provide power. I just had the battery in my car do this.
B:Yes, most batteries reach a point where they can't provide enough power to spin the motor, the initial current (often called inrush current) can be twice as much as the current required to keep the motor spinning. In my KTM the inrush current is ~120-130A but once the motor starts spinning the current drops to about 60A. Why is this important, the voltage sag of a battery is dependent on the load, as the battery gets more and more discharged the voltage under load eventually gets to low to spin the motor.
C:Again, maybe I suspect that as time goes on and you go on a normal ride you will know for sure. On thing is for certain your charging system is working. What type of wattage does the system put out? On the FI husaberg the system puts out a max of 200W which is a lot.
D: Unless the valves are mis-adjusted that shouldn't be an issue. Every once in a while the bike can stall on the compression stroke past the point the decomp engages, but you should be able to push through it withe the kick starter and use the button.

I just realized I think I emailed you a few minutes ago. I keep a TurnTech in the camelback as a backup. The berg will not even push start (and will quit) if there is not voltage from a battery.

 

[rabskyline]

te510's are famous for this... my take on it is this.. stator needs beefed up ! its a big bore high comp engine and takes a bit of juice when warm... things you need, good earthing, good battery(very good in fact) and decomp lobe in good condition... they need to be charged overnight before a ride if going to be stop/started alot as it sucks them dry ! 450's dont seem to have the issue but loads of 510's have.. mine included.(ok once i done the above items and charging routine)...

 

[bbcmat]

My 09 TE510 isn't famous for this. I've run a 35/35W main headlight and 2 55W H3 fog lights on the street (for hours at a time) without start issues. Your EFI bike already has an upgraded stator/voltage reg from the factory.

Your auto-decompression is not working - increasing peak load on the battery and all its interconnects.

If you can't kick it to life easily - then the efi / idle air bypass settings are off.

I kicked mine to life using a 9V dry cell battery and some clip leads(just as an experiment). The fuel prime didn't sound too happy but it fired up. I put the main battery back into circuit as quicky as I could.

Fix the auto-decomp and clean/lube/torque the power circuit from battery to starter and ground. A poor connection can also lead to poor charging.

IMO


MAT

 

[rabskyline]

your bike is exactly how many years old(months) lol yours is new and stop starts on road arent like the trails every ten mins with fan on a lot ?? but yes, the decomp has a lot to do with it(if worn or not connecting on cam properly), as does valves,earth,battery condition ....check the lot

 

[jeffchri]

Okay, looks like I have a few things to check. It seems like I need to get the thing kickstartable again - both as a safety measure in case the battery keeps crapping out on me, and more importantly, as it's an indicator of hard-starting of some kind, that might in turn be causing the starter to work harder and drain more juice.

I'll do some kickstarting tests tonight, with and without the manual decompressor, and see if I can get it to start now that the battery is back to a reasonable charge state.

If that doesn't fix it, I'll crack it open and check the valves. That hasn't been done in awhile.

While I'm in there ... how does one know if the decompressor lobe is jacked or not? IIRC (and I might be thinking about the wrong bike), it has a little spring-loaded nob thingy ... should I just confirm that it moves at all? That the lobe isn't worn and/or disconnected? Does the manual decompressor hook into the same system, btw (e.. just cable-actuate the lobe)

I orderd a 2.5 and 5ah Turntech battery, and will carry the 2.5 for awhile. Might install the 5ah at some point, once I have all this sussed, but I don't want to add too many other factors just yet.

If none of THAT works - if I have this problem again - or maybe even if I don't - I'm going to track down through the entire charging circuit to make sure there aren't loose connections, which perhaps are shaking loose only at certain vibes ... though one would expect that problem to get worse over time, which this isn't.

I have a few spare small LED voltmeters, I think I'll rig one up for the time being to help keep an eye on all of this. Might be helpful, though I can't decide where in the circuit I want to stuff it ...

 

[JoeT]

Is it hard to kick, or does it just not start when kicking?

Hard to kick is usually valves (autodecomp not working properly), easy to kick could be a number of things (no spark, no fuel, electrical problems, worn rings, leaky valves, ect)

 

[jeffchri]

Is it hard to kick, or does it just not start when kicking?

Hard ... like jump in the air and thwack down on it to move hard.

So I shouldn't have to use the manual decompress lever to make it kick easily? Sorry, this is my first bike of this displacement with a kicker ...

 

[tempus fugit]

Dumb question but....it's in neutral when you are trying to start, right? I know my 450 has too much drag to kick when it's in gear with the clutch pulled in.

On the first ride out last weekend, I was shutting off a lot, and by the end of the day it wouldn't e-start while in gear. I clicked it into neutral and it lit right up. Then after a section of road riding I tried it again in gear with clutch in and it worked fine so it had re-charged.

 

[jeffchri]

Dumb question but....it's in neutral when you are trying to start, right? I know my 450 has too much drag to kick when it's in gear with the clutch pulled in.

Yep, definitely in neutral on start attempts with both e-start and kicker.

 

[glangston]

An experienced rider said the thing to do is when the bike is first started on any given day/ride, to jump start it.

 

[JoeT]

Hard ... like jump in the air and thwack down on it to move hard.

So I shouldn't have to use the manual decompress lever to make it kick easily? Sorry, this is my first bike of this displacement with a kicker ...

No you shouldn't have to use the manual decompression lever. I can start, yes I said start, my KTM with my hand.

The old YZ400 you had to use the manual decomp lever on, they didn't have the autodecomp.

It sounds like your autodecomp is not working. Not sure how the decomp works on the Huskies though so don't know if it is a matter of getting the valves back in adjustment or adjusting the mechanism..

 

[jeffchri]

Well, I know a bit more ... valves looked good, but autodecomp assembly felt a little "hitchy", like it was relucantat to change states from one mode to the other. Seems like some shimming might be in order. I put more info in a different thread, http://www.cafehusky.com/forums/showthread.php?t=876&page=3. I jiggered everything around and got oil where there wasn't any, we'll see what works.

The tank is still off - plug the neighborhood is sleeping - so I won't know anything until tomorrow at the earliest. I'm going to mess with the manual decomp lever a bit - I made sure it is rigged properly now, it's easy to screw it up when you have the valve cover off, btw, because of that little pin thingy over near the lever spindle. Bizarre.

So I'll keep my fingers crossed ...

- Jeff

 

[rabskyline]

ive posted pics of worn one before.. here's another ! new should have good solid step up and higher..worn is oval and thin looking.. theres no such thing as an easy to kick te510... mate couldnt do his own 09 easy and it starts off the button, its a strong engine..best fix the leccy leg !

 

[jeffchri]

ive posted pics of worn one before.. here's another ! new should have good solid step up and higher..worn is oval and thin looking.. theres no such thing as an easy to kick te510... mate couldnt do his own 09 easy and it starts off the button, its a strong engine..best fix the leccy leg !

Are you saying that this shim didn't really fix much?

 

[rabskyline]

the decomp lobe helps it start easier off the button but between this and valve service should be what you are after... they dont kick like a ktm or any other wr450 etc.. they are hard to kick and thats that ! check the lobe and also that its making contact with the valve thingy so its doing its job as there was a thread about them missing the valve and not doing its job.. things ive learned.. good battery and good earth essential. i use the decomp lever but only to aide the battery but i think my valves are needing adjusted now as that makes a huge difference to starting any bike !