Everything you wanted to know about oil and a lot you didn’t.

[robertaccio]

No matter what y'all say, research and do I'll stick with what the moto pros use and all the top tier moto teams in everything from MotoGP to WSBK to WEC enduro to MXGP to AMA Nat MX teams etc etc 99%(because I cant say 100% without some proof) all use Moto engineered specific oils from castrol, maxima.repsol, motorex, spectro etc etc . enjoy the ride and saving a few bucks on your oil. my 310 runs with motorex 10w60.

Just throwing it up here to think about, a little food for thought/discussion. Castrol for example of one oil company has a Moto specific lab (Pangbourne) to design top tier moto specific oils. are you more knowledgeable about your moto oil choices?
http://www.castrolmoto.com/en/research_development.php

 

[robertaccio]

and in addition for a little more specific cafe husky target audience

http://www.castrolmoto.com/en/oem/husqvarna.php

 

[Tinken]

my 310 runs with motorex 10w60.

I have heard a lot of good things about Motorex.

Question, why did you choose 10w60 for your particular application? Are you using that high of grade because the pro’s use it or did you actually test your engine with that weight against an oil pressure gauge/rpm?

Just curious.

 

[Motosportz]

oil threads are fun.

 

[Tinken]

Went digging around for Motorex oil because I was curious, haven't used it in a long time and found this advertisement claim:

RACING PRO 4T Fully synthetic racing oil developed by MOTOREX Racing Lab with CRESCENT SUZUKI/RIZLA SUZUKI Team in the British Superbike Championship (0w40). The 0w40 viscosity also used by KTM in Factory RC8 superbikes. The 0w40 viscosity delivers top horsepower performance for sportbikes and also 4-stroke motocross engines. The 0w40 viscosity will add as much as 2 horsepower in a 450cc motocross race engine.

The only issue I found was Motorex's API rating was JASO MA/API SG, JASO MA being okay for wet clutch, but the API SG rating is from 1988 and is now obsolete. The 2 hp gain for 0w40 was interesting.

 

[turboslacker]

Question, why did you choose 10w60 for your particular application? Are you using that high of grade because the pro’s use it or did you actually test your engine with that weight against an oil pressure gauge/rpm?

Just curious.

10w60 is what is called for in the Husky owners manual for my 2009 TXC250. OEM recommendation. Not a bad reason.

 

[huskybear]

 

[Tinken]

10w60 is what is called for in the Husky owners manual for my 2009 TXC250. OEM recommendation. Not a bad reason.

Oh absolutely, the 2008 and 2009 txc250's both recommended 10w60. But the 310's recommend 10w50.

 

[Tinken]

I was unable to locate a 0w60 oil for the 2008-09 TXC250 other than NASA's $100/ltr. I was able to find a 5w60 made by Penrite 14 dollars a ltr; http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/engine-oils-~-automotive/10-tenths-premium/premium_5_

API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3, BMW LL-98, MB 229.1, JASO MA, VW 502.00/505.00

Edit: http://www.motofluid.com.au/product/premium-5

 

[robertaccio]

Correct the 310 OEM spec is Castrol 10w50. Truth is I had always thought it was 10w60 from the before spec. However after speaking with the man- Ty at ZipTy he mentioned they did extensive race/field temp testing of the 250/310 powerplant and found that it (the Husky X-Lite) runs at much higher temps comparatively among other machines in that displacement category, so 10w60 for our SoCal 70 deg average temp sounds good to me. Also note my clutch was chattery on engagement until I went to the MotoRex 10w60 (but there is also the ZipTy bushing mod that I will do that cures any chattering from the harder/oil temp hardened clutch bushings). Like K said oil threads are fun- add controversial, sometimes heated, very opinionated, less scientific, more emotional. I think Husky made a wise choice to partner with Castrol (and shoot Im not even using it) as they have been a motorsports and specifically a motorcycle partner since the early days of motoring. Castrol has big time credibility.

 

[Tinken]

There is No molybdenum disulphide in Mobil1 except for their 0w30 and 0w50 racing oils. Mobil1 uses Zinc Dialkydithiophospate (Zn[(S2P(OEt)2]2) for it's friction modifier which will not harm wet clutches, in fact, the 0w-40 and 15w-50 contains 400 to 600 ppm less ZDDP than the Mobil1 4t motorcycle specific oils and they both have higher shear viscosity @ 302°F than the 4t oils as well.

(moved from a different thread)

 

[robertaccio]

Again I digress and add more examples to my mantra, I will not hesitate to use any top tier formulated and engineered for motorcycle use oil. You guys can use whatever pleases you. I'll let the experts design my moto oil for my needs.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Motorcycle_Oils.aspx

http://www.spectro-oils.com/technical-data/tech-knowledge/

http://www.klotzlube.com/Why_Use_Klotz.asp

http://www.maximausa.com/

Why, Maxima? ProCircuit Racing WINS using it, Mitch Payton uses it........(one example)

http://www.motorexusa.com/

Why Motorex? Factory KTM WINS using it...... AMA Suzuki road racing team......

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=82915504&contentId=7040371

Why Castrol??? just need to read on.


I get excited about these old oil threads, these threads have wings, oh yeah that's a red bullism they use Motorex products in their bikes.

 

[Tinken]

Oh good, I was hoping I would push your buttons hard enough for you to post again. *looks innocent* And you're right, this is just my opinion on oil, not to be taken as me telling your hand what to do.

I used to be an Amsoil guy until recently when I heard a new argument. Amsoil had previously shown all these pretty graphs and tables about how they have half the wear of Mobil 1 and how pure they are until Pennzoil Ultra. Pennzoil Ultra is 100% class III oil and many claim it has better wear and shear than Amsoil, but Amsoil claims that Ultra and Amsoil are completely identical in quality. Hmmm that made me wonder. So I pulled spec sheets from Ultra and Mobil1 as you can see in a much earlier posting on this thread. The Mobil1 is actually a slightly better grade than Ultra. I realized that this is all a name game. So I went looking at MSDS and spec sheets from various oil companies and comparing actual oil specs and not the colorful labels and websites. Turns out that not only is Mobil1 very high quality, that their 15w-50 and 0w-40 weights were better than their motorcycle specific counter parts. Hmmm The only spec sheet I have not seen thus far is Motorex's. Motorex pulled all their spec sheets and all of their MSDS sheets from their websites. I have written numerous emails and letters to their company requesting spec sheets on their oils and have been denied access. Hmmm I did however find the spec sheets on the colorful and famous Castrol.

Factory KTM wins using it... Don't even get me started on ProCircuit. All those factory teams using those oils are in a contingency game. Believe me, if I came to you with Thrifty butt-lube blue bottle oil and offered you massive contingency for running my oil, it would become holy water. Is that Monster Energy Drink they are squirting into their mouths at the end of races? I think not.

Anyway, I attached a picture below, I do like the Castrol and Mobil1 logos, they are quite colorful. There's some cool numbers there too, the ones I especially like are the Zinc numbers showing that there are less friction modifiers in the regular oil than there is in the Motorcycle specific oil (modifiers that are supposed to slip your clutch if you use non Jaso rated oil, does this mean my clutch will slip more with motorcycle oil?).

 

[Caiman]

No detailed specs but here are some MSDS's for the motorex stuff, by law you need to supply MSDS's for anything sold in AU afaik;

http://www.motorexoil.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=74

 

[steadydirt]

Funny, I think you're right. Actually I think both of you are right. Obviously, oil on any surface lubricates. I use Duralube in my engines because it stays on my cylinder walls and continues to lubricate even after sitting for six months and doesn’t effect my wet-clutch.
I think the point that Haas was failing to reintegrate was what he spoke of earlier in the article that pressure is inversely proportionate to flow. The higher the pressure the less the flow and vice versa.

“It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 grade oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance is irrelevant. In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition. If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up. It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are inversely related. Conversely if you choose thinner oil then the pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased.”

Our engines basically hydroplane on a film of oil, even under extreme pressure, the piston rings float on 3 microns of oil. I run 0w40 oil in my Husky because when I start up, 0w oil flows much faster than 10w which results in a lot less start-up wear and 0w is still way thicker cold than 40w is when at operating temperatures.

A long time ago, oil manufacturers made their anti-wear additives out of substances which would harm fiber pressure plates. This is why oil was specifically created for engines with wet bath clutches. Today is a totally new game and synthetic based oils made for automobiles don’t harm wet bath clutches any longer. Of course adding Slick 50 or additives with graphite or molybdenum disulfide would ruin your wet bath clutches right away, but not auto-oil. I am sure the specialty oil manufacturers would still love to sell you a bottle of Belray motorcycle oil for $17.99 a quart. I’ll continue with my six dollar wally world oil.

I run a 2T so for me this is moot. I did wonder if there was a simple way to get some oil pressure before startup on a 4T? Understanding that most wear occurs at startup.

 

[Tinken]

I run a 2T so for me this is moot. I did wonder if there was a simple way to get some oil pressure before startup on a 4T? Understanding that most wear occurs at startup.

The easiest way to get the oil flow up on a 4t is to use an oil with a lower cold number, example 0w40 or 5w40. The 0 grade in 0w## has an initial viscosity of 40, 10w## has a viscosity of 100 and 20w## has a viscosity of 250. Our engines operate normally around a viscosity of 3-4, so the time frame for the oil to heat enough to thin all the way down to 4 is quicker when you have a initial viscosity of 40. This is why when running oil weights such as 20w50 and 20w60 can lead to premature engine wear. Oil weights with a lower first number, for example 10w50 and 10w60 would generally be a better choice when available.

Another way is to coat the metal parts with a hardened compound such as titanium nitride (TiN) which is what is done in the TC449. I use a 20% addition of a chlorinated hydrocarbon such as Duralube to coat the metal parts. This compound offers a much higher tinsel strength to oil and does not drain off, not even after years of storage. This is easier than the TiN coating and inexpensive by comparison. This applies to 2T transmissions as well.

 

[Tinken]

No detailed specs but here are some MSDS's for the motorex stuff, by law you need to supply MSDS's for anything sold in AU afaik;

http://www.motorexoil.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=74

Thank you very much Caiman for the link to the msds sheets. There are some specs on the msds sheets in reference to viscosity at 100°C. I haven't had a chance to read through more than about ten of the sheets so far and I will do more research later into the msds sheets. The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. Motorex lists their viscosity in mm2/s and I am not sure if there is a conversion for this, but it looks like similar numbers.

I can say for certain that as Dr. Haas explained in his article, the labeling on the front of the bottle means very little to nothing, especially on a Motorex bottle. For example, I see that the same 10w50 naming across Motorex bottles can mean anything from 14.3 mm2/s to 24 @ 100°C. This is confusing because Mobil1 0w40 has a cSt of 14.3 @ 100°C and Motorex 10w50 TopSpeed has a mm2/s of 14.3 @ 100°C.

I am not implying that Motorex is of poor quality, Motorex lists api ratings as high as SL, but if you are only reading what is on the bottle, you don't really know what you are getting. This is true with any of the manufactures containers.

Instead of listing #w-## on the front of oil containers, I wish oil manufactures would list the cSt values @ 40° and 100°C. Although if they did revert to this new labeling, I doubt they would sell as much specialty oil @ $15-20 dollars a liter.

As we increase the heat from 212 F to 302 F the most commonly recommended oil thins from 10 cS to 3 cS. The thicker oil drops from 20 cS to 4 cS. Note that in a very hot engine the difference between the two oils is now only 1 - 2 cS. In other words they have about the same thickness. There is little advantage to a thicker based oil as a 20W-50 at very high temperatures. No, the 4 cS oil is not twice as thick as the 2 or 3 cS oil. This difference is almost insignificant.


There is a huge advantage of using the thinner, 10W-30 at startup where 90 percent of the engine wear occurs. At 75 F the thicker oil has a viscosity in the range of 250 cS while the thinner oil has a viscosity of 100 cS. The thicker stuff is 150 cS thicker. This is a very big difference. I am using the 20W-50 as my thicker oil example here.

Using an oil that is less thick at startup has other benefits. Let us compare a synthetic 10W-30 to a mineral based 10W-30. Both give you a viscosity of 10 cS at normal engine operating temperatures. They both thin to 3 cS at high temperatures. At 75 F tomorrow morning the story will be different. The startup viscosity of the synthetic will be 50 whereas the mineral based 10W-30 will be 100. Again, both are too thick at startup but the synthetic will cause less startup time period wear and tear. You will get a little better gas mileage too.

Remember that a major function of oil is to cool the inside of your engine. In ASTM D 4485 3.1.4: “Terminology: Engine oil- a liquid that reduces friction and wear between moving parts within an engine, and also serves as a coolant.” Since the oil with a viscosity of 10 cS at 212 F thins to a viscosity of 3 cS at 302 F we will get more flow. The pressure will go down some as well. This is OK as long as we have a minimum of pressure to move the oil.

 

[creaky]

Ho....Hum....