Fuel Injection?

[Kartwheel68]

I lived out there in the 80s so I know how Kalifornia works. Its a complete and total scam. Even more ridiculous is the fact that the ONLY dirt bikes that have any kind of emissions regulations are the ones that will be used on lands that require a Green/Red sticker. If your bike is closed course only, it is no more effected by emissions regulations than is a NASCAR or Indy car at Fontana speedway.

 

[pentonpro]

The point I tried to make is that why not embrace the technology? Its out there and it benefits the riders.
This is not new technology, just new to motorcycles.

 

[Vinduro]

because it's far more reliable and never requires rejetting.

EFI is far from reliable compared to a carb. Never needs rejetting ? No, But frequently you must remap it. Then you have to have a laptop computer to do so. A Lectron doesn't need rejetting once fine tuned. Even a good Keihin rarely needs rejetting. The sucky TMXx is a major pain.

 

[Vinduro]

Ya, the last time I bought a car, I told that dealer "Don't show me any cars with that EFI crap... It'll just leave me stranded."

Big difference in the EFI on a car or truck verses that on a motorcycle. Especially a dirtbike. There are top tuners now working on project to replace EFI on current 4 stroke dirtbikes with Lectron carbs or other type carbs.

 

[Vinduro]

EFI is vastly superior for emissions control. And before long it won't be an option, it'll be required for that reason alone. Best get used to it. It's time motorcycles carried their share of the environmentally conscious load.

That is a load of crap. Like the Global Warming scam. Dirt bikes are not ridden full time like a car or truck. In the scheme of things dirtbikes don't have any impact that can be measured. There are not even enough motorcycles on the highway to have any impact on the environment.

 

[Vinduro]

If you have DI and it cleans up the 2 stroke and makes it more fuel efficient, what is the negative here?
Riding to and from the trails as well as more fuel to go further. HMMMM, ya simplicity like in 1970s

The negatives are complexity, Weight, less reliable and expense.

 

[Zomby woof]

EFI is far from reliable compared to a carb. Never needs rejetting ? No, But frequently you must remap it. Then you have to have a laptop computer to do so. A Lectron doesn't need rejetting once fine tuned. Even a good Keihin rarely needs rejetting. The sucky TMXx is a major pain.

That's not true. With the proper setup, it's far superior and far more flexible than a carb, under every circumstance. The problem with the EFI on late model bikes is that the manufacturers are using 1970's EFI technology, probably to cut costs.
The custom EFI setup on my car is far more accurate than a carb could ever be, extremely reliable, and does not require any tuning once the base maps are setup (no more time than properly jetting a carb). I haven't touched it in the 2 years I've been using it, and it cost only a little bit more than a Lectron.
I'm a carb guy from way back, but I'm also a professional mechanic and know that no carb can match modern EFI for drivability, economy, or reliability.

 

[rockdancer]

Unless the fuel pump doesnt come on and I have to tow the TE 450 efi 10 klms with my wr 144. Like I did on my last ride

 

[7point62]

That's not true. With the proper setup, it's far superior and far more flexible than a carb, under every circumstance. The problem with the EFI on late model bikes is that the manufacturers are using 1970's EFI technology, probably to cut costs.
The custom EFI setup on my car is far more accurate than a carb could ever be, extremely reliable, and does not require any tuning once the base maps are setup (no more time than properly jetting a carb). I haven't touched it in the 2 years I've been using it, and it cost only a little bit more than a Lectron.
I'm a carb guy from way back, but I'm also a professional mechanic and know that no carb can match modern EFI for drivability, economy, or reliability.

This, although I'm sure that the Mikuni EFI setup on the 07-09s probably put a lot of folks off injection for life and gave carb purists the opportunity to say "I told you so". An unfortunate consequense of picking the wrong hardware (doubtless because of cost) and making a dog's breakfast of implementing it (because fixing it would probably have cost more money than buying the right hardware in the first place). This was then made worse by a subsequent lack of factiory effort when when pressure pumps started to turn their toes up. If BMW weren't willing to fix the problems then the least they could have done was to make the replacement parts vaguely affordable (like Honda did with CRF heads...)

Rant over, back to topic!

 

[Xcuvator]

EFI is so good when it is good.
For MX or close to home riding with friends very nice once tuned.
Outback off road and dual sport especially solo, not so much....
Only a matter of time.

 

[Vinduro]

That's not true. With the proper setup, it's far superior and far more flexible than a carb, under every circumstance. The problem with the EFI on late model bikes is that the manufacturers are using 1970's EFI technology, probably to cut costs.
The custom EFI setup on my car is far more accurate than a carb could ever be, extremely reliable, and does not require any tuning once the base maps are setup (no more time than properly jetting a carb). I haven't touched it in the 2 years I've been using it, and it cost only a little bit more than a Lectron.
I'm a carb guy from way back, but I'm also a professional mechanic and know that no carb can match modern EFI for drivability, economy, or reliability.

You are trying to compare a modern automotive EFI to what comes on motorcycles. Big differences.

 

[ohmygewd]

My only concern with DI/EFI on a 2banger will be injector life and how to stop them gumming up when you park your bike in the shed for a few months of not riding - all well and good for a petrol 4T but we are talking premix here, and if diesel injectors cost heaps to clean what about 2strokes?.

 

[pentonpro]

I guess you don't stabilize the gas over there when not in use? We can not get away with that here in the U S The argument is simply dependable and less weight? Well it means I can ride it on the roads and get more distance and it DOES help the environment the I am all for it. Other wise I ll buy a vintage bike and haul it to the trails and track.
Off road will go to electric or perish.

 

[Coffee]

I split the Fuel Injection for 2st off into a separate thread from the buyout discussion.

 

[mnb]

frequently you must remap it.

Nope. Set it and forget it.

 

[ray_ray]

Complexity. I worked at a dealership when DI two strokes first came to water craft. We had Kawasaki (FICHT), Bombardier (Orbital) and Yamaha, everyone thought it was going to be great, and they ARE great....as long as everything is working. Injectors (especially the very high pressure DI injectors) fail, fuel pumps fail, if it is going to be DOT legal it will have an O2 sensor...none of that stuff on a carb'd bike. I can tell you from years of first hand experience working with DI two strokes that when something does go wrong, its a nightmare. The idea of a DI two stroke sounds great until you start to feel the realities, then its not clear they are worth the trouble. Some people will think they are worth the extra complexity, but I do not.

I know zero about the mechanics of a DI 2T, but after some thought, I'd have to agree that the simplicity of the current 2t engines is gonna be lost in this change ... Good or bad it is gonna happen ... And needs to happen, but its not gonna be a good day for everyone ...

The EXP-2 was both carburated and FI, but it didnt have DI.

To be blunt, emissions from dirt bikes might be a visible political issue, but the contribution of pollution from them is completely and totally irrelevant. They are not even a drop in the bucket.

I've never thought bikes are doing the damage the goody-goody 2 shoes have always bitched, whined, and cried about my entire 50 yrs of life ...

 

[bdl507]

Its going to happen no matter how hard we kick and scream when it happens I will keep mine but I will also buy a new one. Don't knock it till you try it.

 

[Picklito]

Although it's obvious that I'm overall in favor of EFI, or something like EFI, all the counter-arguments above are very valid... for now. But it's not the fault of EFI. A large reason our motorcycle and dirt bike EFI systems have been so... ?sketch?... is because EFI is way behind the curve in the motorcycle industry (and this may not be solely the fault of the motorcycle industry as I mention below). However...

What we are getting on bikes today is basically EFI in its infancy. It's crap. Our Husky and KTM thumpers, for example, are on year 3 or 4 of EFI? ReallY? If our manufacturers were putting out their 30th EFI year model TE or EXC, like the auto industry, we'd be getting a vastly better product. Seriously, the point I made above is very strong: Our automobiles operate with amazing consistency and reliability. But they didn't in 1984 with the electronic quadrajet on my mother-in-law's Camaro! Similarly, when I owned the 2009 TE 450 with EFI... it was really more hassle than it was worth. I sold it, after buying ibeat and the cable and reading hours and hours of posts on CH and spending more ridiculous hours trying to get it to run as well as a carb'd TXC. That was Husky's second year of an EFI TE. That's ridiculous. Off the lot, our cars run. Yes, you can buy a tuner/programmer IF YOU WANT TO, but you don't HAVE TO just to get them to run as with many of our motorcycles, which are factory calibrated "for emissions reasons" to run horribly out of the crate. I don't understand why they "have to" do that to our bikes in order to obtain "approval" for sale when our cars don't have to be like that. Now, I've mixed several EFI/emissions/political reasons here, but they are horribly tangled together at present. It's not that EFI is bad or less or weird or more complex or... it's where that industry is, for bikes, at this time, for these reasons. Even though it's stupid!

 

[Zomby woof]

You are trying to compare a modern automotive EFI to what comes on motorcycles. Big differences.

No I'm not.
I'm saying that EFI on bikes works like shit because bike manufacturers install shit systems. The problem is not EFI, it's the half-assed manufacturers. If they installed modern EFI on bikes, nobody would want a carbed bike anymore, same as cars.

 

[pentonpro]

It's all about having deep pockets. Evenrude"s ficht system purchased from a german inventor was untested but with 2006 requirements from the EPA to clean up outboard emissions, put pressure on new products that would comply. Well after colossal failures on the large engines in the late 90s and early 2000's put the oldest outboard company out of business.
Lots of people lost their jobs. Evenrude purchased by Bombardier/Rotax and company tested and perfected the engine to a great product.
They even used an engine in a snowmobile skidoo to prove it could be reliable and meet EPA air standards. This made the snowmobile crowd excited because the 4 stroke snowmobiles were less power to weight ratio. Sound familiar?
Money and need with demand from the public will bring you reliable clean fuel injection to motorcycles.
I truly believe 2 stroke will come back better than ever. The hot rod crowd doesn't have any problem with putting modern power in their 50 year old cars. Resto rods.