All 2st Jetting Chat - Need Help? Post Your Questions Here

[Johnnymannen]

What you say makes sense. What I don't understand is why you and I are so lean. We are way leaner than the JD recommendations. After top notch red, there is no place to go leaner. I ride that bike at 2000-2500". If I had to ride higher, I would probably need to get a different needle.
I had to raise notches on the red needle after I had my squish set along with combution chamber reshape and RB designs carb divider plate. I guess there is just way more signal?

Yes, you,re right. We are lean! if i would ride on higher elevation i would use the CEM needle for gnarly stuff and EEM for more high power and WOT runs. Those needles are slightly leaner at the base diameter and i have been using and evaluated both. The EEM needle is guite much tapered and fat and works good for high power. I used it for iceracing for example, but now i have a ported Honda CR 500 for that.

Johnny

 

[Xcuvator]

Yes, you,re right. We are lean! if i would ride on higher elevation i would use the CEM needle for gnarly stuff and EEM for more high power and WOT runs. Those needles are slightly leaner at the base diameter and i have been using and evaluated both. The EEM needle is guite much tapered and fat and works good for high power. I used it for iceracing for example, but now i have a ported Honda CR 500 for that.

Johnny

I may try a bigger pilot and go to the top red notch to see what happens. But my bike has never run so good the way it is. I switched back to the stock pipe from the Gnarly along with going leaner on the red. The only reason I didn't try it before is that it was so far from the JD recommendations. Then I read your post and gave it a try. Really runs and pulls good. I can let off a little on the long steep hills for the rough stuff, then roll it right back on. I didn't think it could ever pull that good from the midrange!

Oh and,the 500 must be a rush.

 

[marcmo0]

I may try a bigger pilot and go to the top red notch to see what happens. But my bike has never run so good the way it is. I switched back to the stock pipe from the Gnarly along with going leaner on the red. The only reason I didn't try it before is that it was so far from the JD recommendations. Then I read your post and gave it a try. Really runs and pulls good. I can let off a little on the long steep hills for the rough stuff, then roll it right back on. I didn't think it could ever pull that good from the midrange!

Oh and,the 500 must be a rush.

Why the switch from Gnarly to stock pipe? How was Gnarly, I have been thinking about getting one, but don't want to kill the top end rev

 

[Xcuvator]

Why the switch from Gnarly to stock pipe? How was Gnarly, I have been thinking about getting one, but don't want to kill the top end rev

I put the Gnarly and PWK on right after getting the bike because I crashed putting a whopper of a dent in the pipe. I fixed the pipe but never put it back on till last week. Others may have a different feeling about the Gnarly, but I think the bike runs just as good on the bottom end and much better everywhere else with the stock pipe.
Like I said above, I didn't know the bike was capable of pulling like it does now.

 

[Johnnymannen]

I may try a bigger pilot and go to the top red notch to see what happens. But my bike has never run so good the way it is. I switched back to the stock pipe from the Gnarly along with going leaner on the red. The only reason I didn't try it before is that it was so far from the JD recommendations. Then I read your post and gave it a try. Really runs and pulls good. I can let off a little on the long steep hills for the rough stuff, then roll it right back on. I didn't think it could ever pull that good from the midrange!

Oh and,the 500 must be a rush.

Sounds good that you are satisfyed! One thing that i am thinking of is to change the throttlegrip. it has not with the jetting itself to do, but when you get really tired i would like a slightly smoother throttleaction. There is some throttlegrips where you can change the cams for the cable to ear it down and get it smoother. And yes, the 500 is a beast! ported cylinder, PWK 41,5, ProCircuit system and racehead. It scares me sometimes.

Johnny.

 

[pvduke]

. And yes, the 500 is a beast! ported cylinder, PWK 41,5, ProCircuit system and racehead. It scares me sometimes.

Johnny.

what, you scared? impossible!

i totally wanna ride it.

weeeeeeee!

 

[pvduke]

Hey Johnny,
I know you have been working on your settings a long time. I am one notch richer with my red needle on my 250 and the same pilot 1 1/4 turns. My bike idles high when I stop. I like the way it runs but I'm worried it's a little lean. Does your bike idle right down?

go in 1/8 - 1/4 turn on your AS, watch it with the needle adjustments! if the scoot idles a little high after a long blast then settles back down and returns to idle OK after some putting around yer good. if after some putting about or a couple quick snorts 3/4 TO or less and it wont come back down or runs away (ging-ging-GING GINGINGING!) at idle yer lean on the PJ, maybe needle too etc...

 

[pvduke]

Would a low float cause the bike to load up on small down hills? I have the jetting dialed in with a tan plug after a plug chop and it runs clean low-top. But after a short down hill it loads up and takes a bit to clean it out. I've also noticed that it drips gas if the bike is anything but straight up.

not abnormal if it's steep, yer tapping the brakes, the pipe cools etc etc...

dont let gas piddle fool ya into lowering the fuel level in the bowl. keep the cl pulled in and snapping the gas on the way down. if it cleans up in one gear WFO after ya hit the bottom yer fine thats normal.

gas will piss from the bowl anytime there's no WFO draw to compensate for the incoming from the fuel-cock (gravity fed) so it has to go somewhere, esp if the bike is tilted.
it'll piss out the overflow if the fuel is on and it aint WFO and just idling or parked.
totalyl normal. liquid finds its own level. so if you tilt a bowl of cereal and it's full it'll slosh over the sides. carbs do the same thing but the have a "lid" so they piss out the overflow. you do NOT want a low bowl level on a two-smoker.
you did good by doing the plug chop- first.

 

[Vinduro]

I found that the float level was too high on all 3 carbs I tested. The stock TMXX, the 38mm PWK a/s, and the 36mm PWK a/s. If the bike was tilted at all, fuel would spill. Anything more than being parked on side stand. That caused flooding when you hit bumps and chopped throttle and them back on. MAJOR BOG TIME !

 

[Xcuvator]

I don't know if this is good advice or not, but I have heard it numerous times:
If you have trouble with stalling on steep hills, lower the float level until the carb doesn't overflow until the bike is tipped 45 degrees.

 

[pvduke]

Adjusting your float level to the angle of the bike that ultimately lets fuel out of the bowl is akin to adjusting your jetting based on the spooge that comes out the muffler. There's a resource manual for the spec's, use same instead of your "incline-o-meter" because when you are WFO that bowl goes dry FAST.

If your floats/needle/seat are letting too much fuel in it usually floods when vertical w/ the engine off and pees while running.

Only issues I've ever had with floats are brass ones getting pin holes in them from people leaving gas in the bowl. One trip a bud's bike just pissed fuel no matter what. So I diagnosed it and I snipped one off float (low side float, while bike on the side stand) as it still had one good one and we finished the weekend like that. So long as the bike was not parked with the fuel on leaning on the left side it was fine.

Some pro riders beat the snot outta their tangs, needles and seats. I drain my carb for a few reasons, before the drive home.

 

[Vinduro]

But I do jet according to the spooge. Not directly but I will double check if there is spooge. Too much spooge is a result of running too rich. NOT TOO MUCH OIL. It means the fuel / oil mixture is too cool and not burning out completely. Also, the factory spec on float level can also be WRONG. Obviously mine were not correct if all 3 carbs spilled gas when rideing. Also causing a flooding / rich condition when hitting bumps and rolling off throttle and back on. Thus the big bog. Once I got the float level right my fuel economy went from 14mpg to 21mpg.

 

[pvduke]

But I do jet according to the spooge. Not directly but I will double check if there is spooge. Too much spooge is a result of running too rich.

Wrong. It means your packing is saturated. Spooge is spooge, ignore it.

Again- if you are looking at the muffer for jetting clues, you are looking at the WRONG END. Look up front, under the plug wire. The tail pipe emissions have NOTHING to due with HOW you want your bike jetted. You wan't a crisp low end and an upper-mid/top rush with a dark brown plug. Some bikes spooge, other's don't, there's only 15,000 different reasons why.

You almost doubled your mileage from a float setting change? I'll say they were off. I'm suprised the bike even ran, or started for that matter.

 

[Vinduro]

WRONG. If a new bike is spooging isn't from saturated packing. I have been doing this for too long not to know the differnce. If you are spooging then your mixture isn't burning out clean. Usually from too rich a mixture. Also usually from too rich a pilot according to many tuning experts. I find it is that and a bit overall also. Yes. I got 50% better milage from having the float correct. It was spilling out the overflow when hitting bumps and also causing the bike to run too rich. Rich enough to cause a major bog at times.

 

[lankydoug]

The type of oil has a lot to do with spooge. Amsoil Dominator has a high flash point so if you put-put around and don't get enough combustion temperature or are too rich causing the same low combustion temps it will spooge like crazy. Other types of oil in the same situation may not spooge at all because of a lower flashpoint. My WR250 pretty much quit spooging once I got it jetted crisp and clean however the spark plug tells the true story the spooge or lack of it is just a hint as to what is going on.

 

[Vinduro]

The type of oil has a lot to do with spooge. Amsoil Dominator has a high flash point so if you put-put around and don't get enough combustion temperature or are too rich causing the same low combustion temps it will spooge like crazy. Other types of oil in the same situation may not spooge at all because of a lower flashpoint. My WR250 pretty much quit spooging once I got it jetted crisp and clean however the spark plug tells the true story the spooge or lack of it is just a hint as to what is going on.

Yes, You are right about that also. Belray MC1 has a very high flash point and even mixed at 50:1 it was bad about spooging and stoppin up spark arrestors. Suzuki CCI has a very low flash point and burns clean mixed even at 20:1. I am having good luck also with Maxima K2 mixed at 40:1. Started out spooging but it is all but done now that I have the jetting much much closer.

 

[pvduke]

WRONG. If a new bike is spooging isn't from saturated packing. I have been doing this for too long not to know the differnce. If you are spooging then your mixture isn't burning out clean. Usually from too rich a mixture. Also usually from too rich a pilot according to many tuning experts.

Really? Then I've been doing it wrong all these years. Gosh. And, there's ZERO coke in my motors and pipes, ZERO. Yet there's spooge here and there. And there's snap and plug's PERFECT.

Maybe I should stop reading the plug and start reading the packing and the small amount of residue from low-speed stuff (when/where you need the most lube/etc. BTW) that gets blown out the case/pipe when the RPM's go up.

Saturated packing is just ONE of the reasons pipe's drool. There's many. I touched on a few earlier. Load, pipe/muffler construction, intended use, temps of head pipe, etc. etc. etc. all play factors.

Again, adjusting your jetting on a trail/off-road bike to what dribbles down the pipe, vs. how it runs and looks on the plug, is wrong. Read the plug kids. If it's the correct color on the main and has snap down low yer good.

Bog = lean.
Guggle/blubber = rich.

 

[Vinduro]

Sorry, but if you have spooge, you Will have carbon buildup. No getting around it. No, Keep reading your plug. BUT, if you have spooge, there is a rich spot in your jetting. Maybe not on the main jet. I pointed out earlier that many tuners think that spooge is a sign of rich on or just off the pilot jet. All signs must be considered.

 

[pvduke]

I'll send ya pics of my WR125's piston (if it's still on the bench), pipe (it IS still on the bench) etc. w/ over 30+ hours of slow and high speed stuff tomorrow.

Buddy- there is ZERO, I'll repeat, ZERO coke. Anywhere. I don't even have to remove the head to do a top end.
I just put a new FMF pipe on. The stocker has over 50 hours on it. ZERO coke in the pipe. ZEEERO. Coke depostis have more to do with the TYPE of oil, and type of fuel and it's ratio to air, than how much oil you use.

I'll turn it back over to you with this question then I'm done here with the whole spooge thing:

Say I have a tiny litte dribble, or a lot for that matter, running down the underside of the muffler after a tank or two and the bike runs perfect down low and the plug is perfect on the main. Should I adjust my slow speed circuits just because there is something on the muffler?

If you say yes yer wrong. It's like trying to diagnose a toothache by looking at someone's rectum. If it runs fine and there's some drool leave it alone. The engine has to work over a WIDE RANGE of conditions.

 

[lankydoug]

I'll send ya pics of my WR125's piston (if it's still on the bench), pipe (it IS still on the bench) etc. w/ over 30+ hours of slow and high speed stuff tomorrow.

Buddy- there is ZERO, I'll repeat, ZERO coke. Anywhere. I don't even have to remove the head to do a top end.
I just put a new FMF pipe on. The stocker has over 50 hours on it. ZERO coke in the pipe. ZEEERO. Coke depostis have more to do with the TYPE of oil, and type of fuel and it's ratio to air, than how much oil you use.

I'll turn it back over to you with this question then I'm done here with the whole spooge thing:

Say I have a tiny litte dribble, or a lot for that matter, running down the underside of the muffler after a tank or two and the bike runs perfect down low and the plug is perfect on the main. Should I adjust my slow speed circuits just because there is something on the muffler?

If you say yes yer wrong. It's like trying to diagnose a toothache by looking at someone's rectum. If it runs fine and there's some drool leave it alone. The engine has to work over a WIDE RANGE of conditions.

Aren't you an Amsoil Dominator user? I've used it and believe that the flashpoint is high enough that you would always have some spooge unless you were at maybe 100:1 and lean. I think you'll agree when I say, I don't see why anyone makes a big deal out of any of it the fact is, brakes will squeak, clutches will squawk, 2ts will spooge and dirt bikes will get dirty. I say so what... GET ON YER BIKE AND RIDE!