kn 151 oil filter

[Tinken]

Oem doesn't fit them because they want to sell filters. The one thing you cannot get from a paper filter is the flow which is the main reason for purchasing stainless. The stainless steel filter is the same equivalent to a 4 micron paper element with 7 times greater flow. It costs more and cleaning can be a hassle, but high flow capabilities are unmatched.

I clean mine with soap and water, I have for over 12,000 hard race miles on my KTMs.

 

[Mark_H]

Consider the PC Racing filter at $19 from a vendor in Texas. I bought 2 (#116 for the 310). I am never without a fresh one same as air filters (2 Twin Air I clean and oil).

Cleaning is like this... Small half height Peanut butter jar is what I store my spare in. That jar stows inside a old yogurt tub in my tool box. When I change the filter, I place it in the glass jar and spray some brake cleaner into the center orifice blowing debris outward. I then put a small rubber stopper in the hole and spray the outside and the pleats. Slosh it around the small jar. See the sediiment, then pull the filter out and put it into the yogurt tub filled with hot water and Dawn. Slosh around and drain, then rinse and blow dry or a shot of MAF cleaner to remove any moisture. Stow back in glass jar after it (the jar) is cleaned. Costs $3 for an entire can of brake cleaner and MAF stuff is lying around. Dawn always in the house.

Not prohibitive if you go the route of the PC filter. Scotts and K&P I believe are one and the same, expensive and I too hesitated. The PC are less expensive. Doing oil and filter at 300 miles means in 3k miles that's 10 changes or $45. More than 2 PC Racing filters. My bike is going a whole lot more miles so it is a cost savings and a convenience. Only you can decide what works for you but this is what I have done.

Now I like that idea...a lot.

Why is the PC Racing filter so affordable against the K&P version?

Many thanks for the tip - I am looking already.

 

[Johnrg]

Not sure. Tinken told us he had worked with them and were good products. I think the Scotts and K&P were there first and had a set price point they could sell at. For those buyers seeking the very best... Pay up. For those who want the same for less there is PC Racing

That said each filter made can and usually is slightly different in dimensions. We hashed out the mm by mm diffrences of a bunch of them last year. The 310 filter required a flip of the grommet for best fit and I think Tinken could provide any fitment suggestions for the other bikes.

 

[Mark_H]

Oem doesn't fit them because they want to sell filters.

But OEM does not sell filters, there is no OEM any longer.

The one thing you cannot get from a paper filter is the flow which is the main reason for purchasing stainless. The stainless steel filter is the same equivalent to a 4 micron paper element with 7 times greater flow.

Flow is the main reason ?? Why do we need 7 x the flow, why do we need any higher flow than the OEM paper filter gives us ?
After all, the OEM fitted the paper ones, they must work (flow) well enough to be able to satisfy warranty requirements.

It costs more and cleaning can be a hassle, but high flow capabilities are unmatched.

I am sorry but the maths tell me K&P is not viable - and I am pretty sure I do not need any more flow than I have already got.

Lets look at PC Racing Filters instead - the maths maybe works there.

 

[engineerk9]

K9, whats your cleaning method? for these filters. Can you see if youre done a good job? I was toying with the idea but you need two per bike? The dealer advised against using them, but thats no biggy

Cleaning is easy, 2 methods.1/ soak in kero or detergent, then wash under the tap (hot water if possible) flow from inside, to wash particles out, then blow dry with compressed air, again from the inside out. Hold up to the light, looking thru' from the inside, you can see how clean you've made it - 20 - 30 minutes is enough. No need for 2 filters, unless you want the convenience on instand change in/change out My thoughts are to maximise oil flow, which not only lubricates, also cools the bearings, remembering that the TR crankshaft bearings are bushes (with larger running clearances) than ball or roller bearings. I'd be really concerned if l had any metal particles in the oil, the magnetic drain plug is there to collect ferrous particles if any. l'm surprised that this filter discussion has become so emotive. Tribology was one of the subjects for my proffesional qualifications. I was Engineering & Technical support in Australia for a French lubrication company in the '90'sThe second method is to drop them into an ultrasonic cleaner ($90 from Jaycar) for a couple of minutes, blow dry withcompressed air, from the inside out, hold up to the light to judge cleanliness

 

[Tinken]

BMW is the original equipment manufacture, they still are going strong and will continue to support that model long after KTM is required to do so. Higher flow is beneficial for all engines, especially those engines which have been pushed beyond their original manufactured specifications like your own. The additional flow increases bearing separation and cooling to critical areas such as the main rod bearing which usually starves. Which brand of filter is your choice, it's your pocket book. K&P filters are extremely high quality, but PC racing filters are great as well (I sell both of them). Either filter "maths" when you consider engine life versus the hassle and expense of repair.

 

[Mark_H]

BMW is the original equipment manufacture, they still are going strong and will continue to support that model long after KTM is required to do so. Higher flow is beneficial for all engines, especially those engines which have been pushed beyond their original manufactured specifications like your own. The additional flow increases bearing separation and cooling to critical areas such as the main rod bearing which usually starves. Which brand of filter is your choice, it's your pocket book. K&P filters are extremely high quality, but PC racing filters are great as well (I sell both of them). Either filter "maths" when you consider engine life versus the hassle and expense of repair.

First of all I understand we pay our money and we make our choices. Some guys like to fit or make expensive mods to their bikes, that is their choice and they do not need any justification other than the fact that they wanted to do it, however making statements about potential damage and 'pushing' a particular product which claims to reduce such damage is not quite right.

Higher flow may well be beneficial - but do we need really need 7x the flow?

Either filter maths when you consider engine life versus the expense of repair?

Both these statements imply that we have to consider that our engines may suffer damage unless we fit one of the stainless filters and that the OEM filter or any of its paper equivalents are not adequate (flow wise) and not capable of doing the job and preventing that damage?
Moreover does either of the Stainless Filters actually achieve so much greater flow when actually installed in a TR650 engine and is it proven ?

K&P filters are extremely high quality, but PC racing filters are great....

This implies that the PC filter is inferior...in what way? As far as I see it, in the manufacturers claims, they both perform the same, only one is nearly 3x the price of the other.

When I pulled my OEM filter I found that it was a Hi Flo HF151 and I replaced it with exactly the same filter which cost me $4.50 inc postage.
Am I going to suffer engine damage because I didn't fit one with higher flow than the OEM fit - I think not.
My engine has covered 4459 km, and 3850 km since first oil change. The magnet on the drain plug was reasonably clean, with only a thin film of particle sludge. The filter was also fairly clean, which indicates to me that things are not too bad so far and the OEM filter was doing its job quite well.
I intend to replace my Oil and Filter every 4 - 5000 km and even if I only bought one K&P filter, the maths does not work for me.

So.... For the Stainless K&P Filter, I am fully aware that the maths does not work and I am pretty sure I really do not need the higher flow (which is unproven in situ) and the cleaning is a hassle, therefore I choose not to fit one.

Now that is my personal opinion, however, others may think differently and choose to fit the filter of their choice, for what ever reason.
Just don't try to tell me that I need to do the same because I need Higher Flow - that was your main reason, or that my engine life will be reduced if I do not fit a stainless filter, because that is a load of cr*p.

I have ridden, both on track and road, high performance bikes for nearly 50 years and the science for any 4 stroke engine is still the same -
Use a good quality oil and change it and the filter regularly.
Modern fully synthetic oils outperform the older multi-grades but filter technology has not really changed much over the years.

 

[Tinken]

Higher flow does equal longer engine life, both at start up and high rpm. If you believe this to be untrue, I suggest you do some research before making bold statements of dismissal.

 

[mag00]

Higher flow does equal longer engine life, both at start up and high rpm. If you believe this to be untrue, I suggest you do some research before making bold statements of dismissal.

Longer than what?



Driving in the sunshine equals longer engine life.

 

[PaulC]

Cleaning is easy, 2 methods.1/ soak in kero or detergent, then wash under the tap (hot water if possible) flow from inside, to wash particles out, then blow dry with compressed air, again from the inside out. Hold up to the light, looking thru' from the inside, you can see how clean you've made it - 20 - 30 minutes is enough. No need for 2 filters, unless you want the convenience on instand change in/change out My thoughts are to maximise oil flow, which not only lubricates, also cools the bearings, remembering that the TR crankshaft bearings are bushes (with larger running clearances) than ball or roller bearings. I'd be really concerned if l had any metal particles in the oil, the magnetic drain plug is there to collect ferrous particles if any. l'm surprised that this filter discussion has become so emotive. Tribology was one of the subjects for my proffesional qualifications. I was Engineering & Technical support in Australia for a French lubrication company in the '90'sThe second method is to drop them into an ultrasonic cleaner ($90 from Jaycar) for a couple of minutes, blow dry withcompressed air, from the inside out, hold up to the light to judge cleanliness

Thank you for your detailed reply. Just 1+ more Q. I know 2/5th of f#%k all about oil, to guard against this I generally buy the good stuff (7100).
Q is, with your Tribology knowledge and experience + it's been mention in this thread,
(SS filters) "It will not stop the carbon abrasion. Oil change and good paper filters do that". Is this a factor with SS?

And is there any evidence that using SS filters promote bore glazing?

Thanks Bloke

 

[Mark_H]

Higher flow does equal longer engine life, both at start up and high rpm. If you believe this to be untrue, I suggest you do some research before making bold statements of dismissal.

As mag00 says, 'longer than what' ??

I agree, research is needed, so can you show some concrete evidence to prove we all need and will achieve this 'Higher Flow' that you are promoting.

Your statement .... 'especially those engines which have been pushed beyond their original manufactured specifications like your own.' - implies that because the TR650 engine is modified from its original BMW specification there is a need to improve the Oil Flow or suffer damage..... please prove it.

As I said, in my 'bold statement of dismissal' the maths does not work and nor does the 'higher flow' requirement - but only as far as I am concerned.
Other guys may not care about the maths and choose to fit an expensive K&P Stainless Filter because they want to, the choice is free to make.
Just don't tell us that we all need to do the same because we have to have this 'Higher Flow' to prolong engine life and prevent damage, as I said, that is a load of cr*p.

I agree Stainless Filters work well, particularly in race and very high performance R&D engines which are running with smaller tolerances and have much more frequent oil and filter changes than a standard road bike. Centrifugal Filters also work well, but we do not need them.

I am a firm believer in the fact that a product 'speaks for itself' but to state that because one product is claimed to be better than another we all need it is not correct.
Nikon only make cameras - Therefore I bought more than one.
Castrol only make lubricants - Therefore I use them.
HiFlo only make.......you go figure.

 

[Tinken]

Nikon only make cameras - Therefore I bought more than one.
Castrol only make lubricants - Therefore I use them.
HiFlo only make.......you go figure.

HiFlo makes inexpensive low quality oil filters. Last year I witnessed five KTM's implode these filters due to poor flow rates. Not racing engines, just ordinary bikes off the show room floor. We both agree that SS filters work great for race engines, they actually work great for all engines if you can justify the higher initial cost. Not pushing for the hard sale here with you, I sell so many of these I can hardly keep them in stock. However, I'd stick to K&N since you are going to continue to buy throw aways. Fwiw, Nikon makes more than just cameras and Castrol is actually a chemical company.

 

[engineerk9]

Thank you for your detailed reply. Just 1+ more Q. I know 2/5th of f#%k all about oil, to guard against this I generally buy the good stuff (7100).
Q is, with your Tribology knowledge and experience + it's been mention in this thread,
(SS filters) "It will not stop the carbon abrasion. Oil change and good paper filters do that". Is this a factor with SS?

And is there any evidence that using SS filters promote bore glazing?

Thanks Bloke

Hi Paul Lubricating oils have a number of properties, viscosity improvers, anti-foaming agents, dispersant & detergents
Dispersants maintain carbon particles in the oil, which are deposed of during oil changes, the carbon is relatively soft
Detergents keep the engine internals clean
Viscosity improvers are usually "metal" salts - in engine gear boxes the rolling/wiping motion breaks these down very quickly (generally making normal car engine oils unfit for motorcycle engines which use engine/gearbox/clutch units)
"Bore-glazing" was mainly associated with early diesel engines when run for prolonged periods at very low loads, with cast iron cylinder liners, where fuel dilution due to poor combustion was possibly a contributing factor
Modern day manufacturing methods & cylinder materials, "bore-glazing" would be another myth
I've been a Marine Engineer, trained & qualified designing & manufacturing diesel engines & submarines, for literally 50 years & have never actually experienced "bore-glazing" - certainly in the 1980's there were lots of stories about CATs "glazing-bores", possibly originated from Cummins (a competitor??)
You can do no wrong for your TR motor, using a good quality Full Synthetic oil, changing it regularly, myself I use Motorex & change whenever the gear-change feels "notchy" (the viscosity improver has broken down), generally about 6,000klms - I understand Husky/BMW recommend 10,000klms, my feeling is that we're asking a lot of 2.0 litres of oil (that's the Engineer in me speaking)

 

[engineerk9]

HiFlo makes inexpensive low quality oil filters. Last year I witnessed five KTM's implode these filters due to poor flow rates. Not racing engines, just ordinary bikes off the show room floor. We both agree that SS filters work great for race engines, they actually work great for all engines if you can justify the higher initial cost. Not pushing for the hard sale here with you, I sell so many of these I can hardly keep them in stock. However, I'd stick to K&N since you are going to continue to buy throw aways. Fwiw, Nikon makes more than just cameras and Castrol is actually a chemical company.

K&P's are $90 here in Aussie - worth more than twice that, I reckon

 

[PaulC]

Interesting
Thanks for the info

 

[Mark_H]

HiFlo makes inexpensive low quality oil filters. Last year I witnessed five KTM's implode these filters due to poor flow rates. Not racing engines, just ordinary bikes off the show room floor. We both agree that SS filters work great for race engines, they actually work great for all engines if you can justify the higher initial cost. Not pushing for the hard sale here with you, I sell so many of these I can hardly keep them in stock. However, I'd stick to K&N since you are going to continue to buy throw aways. Fwiw, Nikon makes more than just cameras and Castrol is actually a chemical company.

HiFlo makes inexpensive low quality oil filters

You might want to be careful of making statements like that - take a look at what they do produce and think again.

I witnessed five KTM's implode these filters due to poor flow rates

Sorry, but this seems to be getting harder to believe, you alone witness five standard KTM road bikes implode their OEM Oil Filters, which happen to be fitted with a by-pass valve ? There must be some warranty claims there then.

Then a picture of an oil filter clogged with fibreglass cr*p that obviously did not come from normal use with good quality oil.......what was that all about?
I hope it is not relevant to a TR650.

However, I'd stick to K&N since you are going to continue to buy throw aways.

As far as I know K&N and HiFlo are the same (previously posted) and as I showed in my pic my bike came with a HiFlo HF151 which the OEM considered adequate and so do I.

 

[PaulC]

l'm surprised that this filter discussion has become so emotive.

Luckily I did my oil and filter change last weekend, that wIll buy me 2 or 3 months before the decision comes round again!! phew


Ya know, I found a better coolant in waterless, perhaps theres a better filter in stainless

Thanks guys for brainstorming that out.