Need input from light riders – suspension Q’s

[Chop Suey]

I’ve been going back and forth with my husband about (a) lowering my 07 TE250, and (b) having it revalved for my weight (125 lbs).

I’ve conceded that for what I bought the bike for (easier trails and dual sport rides) that I can get by with the seat height. But I’m holding firm on wanting the suspension revalved. My bike handles very well, but going over rocks and roots it feels like a jackhammer sometimes unless I go stupid slow – like first gear. Instead of the front end compressing and rolling over obstacles, it feels like it’s bouncing off things and pushing the bars hard into my chest and sending me flying in directions I don’t want to go. Hey’ I’ve done the Roger DeCoaster cross up a few times, but not intentionally**************************************** This doesn’t seem right to me. My husband softened up the compression and rebound settings and this helped some, but not really. He also thinks just putting lighter oil in the forks will help. From what I’ve read, I’m not so sure about that.

I had the forks for my KX100 revalved for my weight this year and the bike handles very smoothly and I can crank through the same areas that I have to slow down to get through without killing myself on the Husky. The KX is also the only bike that has been properly set up suspension wise for my weigh, so my well of information to draw from is pretty shallow.

So my questions for the lighter Husky riders is did you have your suspension revalved and if so, how does the bike handle? What type of riding are you doing?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[BentAero]

Stacey,

I think you already know my feelings on this issue, but for the benefit of other 'lightweights' such as you and I, I'll elaborate a little.

You and I have the same bike. They come from the factory sprung for a rider somewhere in the range of 170-180 lbs, depending on ability/aggressiveness. Since I'm only 140-145 lbs, I was getting beat to death by the bike.

For a good understanding of whether your spring rate is correct, read this webpage, especially the last paragraph. http://www.tootechracing.com/Static Sag Suspension Tip.htm

This is the companion page: http://www.tootechracing.com/suspension_tips.htm

Don't get hung on the term "race sag". It doesn't matter whether you are racing or not, it's simply "rider weight, ready to ride" sag. "Static sag" is how much the rear droops under it's own weight.

Rick Tannenbaum of Cogent Dynamics, (motocd.com 828.628.9025) a suspension tuner and genuine nice guy near me, suggested we start w/ simply changing the springs -no revalving just yet, since it was obvious they were way too stiff for me. The stockers are 4.8 front and 5.2 rear.

We went with a 4.2 in front and a 4.8 in the rear. He put in the minimum amount of 5 wt. oil he dared in the forks.

The transformation was nothing short of amazing. it went from brutal, to plush, and now I was actually using all of the available travel, where I could never get to the last 2" of travel on the forks, despite my best efforts of landing wrong off killer supercross track jumps w/ the stock springs. I run the forks w/ very little rebound damping, and only 3 to 4 clicks of compression damping, depending on where I'm riding.

I'm very happy w/ the forks and don't plan to revalve them. The shock on the other hand, has some harshness as it goes past roughly the 1/2 way point of compression. We put it on the dyno last week and found out some interesting data, but I'll put that story in a different post.

BTW, when Rick ordered my springs, he ordered two sets of each, so he has a 4.2 fr, and a 4.8 rear in stock.

AFAIK, changing the springs was the single most influential performance gain I've made. It was a major 'bang for the buck'. It not only doesn't beat me any more, but the bike simply rides better, turns better, and I can loft the front wheel easily to leap obstacles now. I highly recommend it.

 

[Chop Suey]

Thanks BentAero! I'm aware of how you feel, but it's helpful to read it again. Are you able to touch any better with the softer springs? I guess I need to first decide who I want to send my suspension (forks and shock) out to and hopefully they can help me determine exactly what I need done. I'm unclear if replacing the existing springs will be enough for me.

 

[BentAero]

You'll be able to reach the ground easier once you are on the bike, but the softer spring won't help you get on or off of it any easier. It will still sit pretty high even with an 1" to 1.25" of static sag, as Huskys' by nature sit pretty tall.

My pal and rookie rider Darrel bought a CRF250X used that had had the shock reworked and lowered, but sadly the company screwed it up somehow. After riding the bike several times, I finally convinced him that he had to have the shock 'fixed' and the lowering 'removed' and put back to normal height. (He wasn't excited about having the bike raised at all.)

Rick at Cogent removed the lowering spacer and softened the shim stack a whole bunch, as the previous builder had it waaaaay too firm, despite having the correct spring for Darrell's weight. The first ride on it and Darrell is raving about it on how much better it is, and the bonus, now that the shock compresses like it should, he can touch the ground just fine. -though I'm afraid his legs are a lot longer than yours.

You may want to consider the softer spring and having a spacer put internally into the shock to lower it a little bit. I've got a Kouba 1.5" lowering link that I'd sell you cheap, but I'd only use it as a last resort if other avenues aren't satisfactory for you.

 

[Chop Suey]

You'll be able to reach the ground easier once you are on the bike

Ah, that's what I was looking for! I can get on and off okay, it's when I need to dab that I sometimes can't touch sufficiently.

 

[BentAero]

I should have clarified that further by noting that seat height is the same no matter what spring rate, it will only change if you have a different sag amount adjusted in, and since static sag should always be within a narrow range, a 4.4 rear spring is going to be just as tall as a 5.4 spring. The difference is having a spring rate that suits YOU. No matter whether a rider is 125 lbs or 225 lbs, the bike should sink the SAME amount for both riders when they get on the seat, IF both riders have the proper spring for their weight. That's why nothing happens when you climb on your trusty Husky. The rate is way too high, so it doesn't compress.

 

[Coffee]

From strictly an economic view, How much does it cost to swap springs vs a complete re-work of suspension front & back?

My re-work of suspension included
re-valve
springs swapped
insert lowering spacer
new oil
seals

It really was not that expensive ($400?) for what benefits it provided. Might at least be worth a peek at some suspension shops web sites or email/phone call. It appears Les might come in about $300? $400? based on his site - unclear if his re-valve includes springs.

 

[ioneater]

Stacey,

I think you already know my feelings on this issue, but for the benefit of other 'lightweights' such as you and I, I'll elaborate a little.

You and I have the same bike. They come from the factory sprung for a rider somewhere in the range of 170-180 lbs, depending on ability/aggressiveness. Since I'm only 140-145 lbs, I was getting beat to death by the bike.

For a good understanding of whether your spring rate is correct, read this webpage, especially the last paragraph. http://www.tootechracing.com/Static Sag Suspension Tip.htm

This is the companion page: http://www.tootechracing.com/suspension_tips.htm

Don't get hung on the term "race sag". It doesn't matter whether you are racing or not, it's simply "rider weight, ready to ride" sag. "Static sag" is how much the rear droops under it's own weight.

Rick Tannenbaum of Cogent Dynamics, (motocd.com 828.628.9025) a suspension tuner and genuine nice guy near me, suggested we start w/ simply changing the springs -no revalving just yet, since it was obvious they were way too stiff for me. The stockers are 4.8 front and 5.2 rear.

We went with a 4.2 in front and a 4.8 in the rear. He put in the minimum amount of 5 wt. oil he dared in the forks.

The transformation was nothing short of amazing. it went from brutal, to plush, and now I was actually using all of the available travel, where I could never get to the last 2" of travel on the forks, despite my best efforts of landing wrong off killer supercross track jumps w/ the stock springs. I run the forks w/ very little rebound damping, and only 3 to 4 clicks of compression damping, depending on where I'm riding.

I'm very happy w/ the forks and don't plan to revalve them. The shock on the other hand, has some harshness as it goes past roughly the 1/2 way point of compression. We put it on the dyno last week and found out some interesting data, but I'll put that story in a different post.

BTW, when Rick ordered my springs, he ordered two sets of each, so he has a 4.2 fr, and a 4.8 rear in stock.

AFAIK, changing the springs was the single most influential performance gain I've made. It was a major 'bang for the buck'. It not only doesn't beat me any more, but the bike simply rides better, turns better, and I can loft the front wheel easily to leap obstacles now. I highly recommend it.

I'm going through the same issue with my 510. Harsh ride, barely touching the balls of my feet (even after sliding forks up 4 lines in triple clamp) and not using the last 3 in. of fork travel. I'm 5'10" 160lb with gear and am not getting the most out of the suspension just like you all talk about. Was told the fork springs on this TE are 5.0's and I believe it. Was also recommended to do exactly what Bentaero did and respring plus go with lighter oil before having a whole valve job done so...... Just got to figure out what size of boingers to get now.

 

[Chop Suey]

From strictly an economic view, How much does it cost to swap springs vs a complete re-work of suspension front & back?

My re-work of suspension included
re-valve
springs swapped
insert lowering spacer
new oil
seals

It really was not that expensive ($400?) for what benefits it provided. Might at least be worth a peek at some suspension shops web sites or email/phone call. It appears Les might come in about $300? $400? based on his site - unclear if his re-valve includes springs.

Well late yesterday I forwarded an inquiry email to Les, Bottones Jo-Bet Cycle, MX-Tech, and BentAero’s guy at Cogent Dynamics with information on me and my bike, so guess I’ll wait and see what they recommend and how much it's going to set me back.

 

[Chop Suey]

Response from LT Racing:

It doesn't look as if you need it lowered.[I forwarded a picture] For some people it makes riding a little more confidence inspiring and if you get into very difficult single track on a regular basis it is much easier to navigate through the tough sections. If you are confident and comfortable with the stock height, leave it standard height. These seem to sit pretty nice height wise, and you do loose suspension travel when lowered. Its really your call, getting the suspension set up properly for you will make riding much nicer by itself. For your weight I would recommend the correct fork and shock springs with a re-valve, this would be right in the $500 range. Add $75 for lowering front and rear if you choose to go this route.

 

[Coffee]

Chop Suey - what is your inseam?

other possibly salient points

• Shipping was $69 to go to PA, it was $35 coming back (cause he had a business account with UPS?) believe the package was just under 40lbs and based on Johns input and his ability to obtain suspensions it was insured for $800. Pricing of new suspensions is kind of scary if they get lost in the mail.
• Believe he changed the clicker adjusters somehow so they actually did something
• A local suspension shop I talked to said their approach was to solder orifices closed and re-drill - that may be the proper way to do it but it did not sound like a good approach to a clueless idiot (me)
• I'll say it again - the re-worked suspension saved my wrists from a hospital visit after hitting something large after making a mistake.

 

[Chop Suey]

Thanks for the points coffee. Inseam is 29". Who did you use to do your suspension work? I posted LT's answer because I thought it was interesting and touches on my concerns about lowering it and some of BentAero's comments. I'm waiting to see what the other shops say - I've got some time before snow flies yet!

Les included some shipping instructions and suggested insuring for $1000 to $2000 for the forks and $600 to $900 for the shock. Also had a comment about gun cases working well but costing more to ship.

I’m sold on doing it believe me!! I’m alright with the seat height and I’ve been doing okay with occasional and short stretches of tricky stuff. I’m not above just getting off the bike and walking it through/around some stuff either! Live to ride another day is my motto.

 

[Coffee]

Les is a great guy for sure, and I'd like to meet him someday.

John Curea of MX-Tech did my suspension, moderator & (I think) sponsor of TT, I wanted to support TT when I could. Next time it will probably be les just to see what all the excitement is about regarding his work.

I've had the opportunity to ride a 2006 TE450 that Bottones Jo-Bet Cycle had reworked - awesome! Except it was set up for someone 100lbs heavier than I.

I've heard nothing but good things about Hall's work as well in IL. Lot's of shops to consider it seems.

Couple of more things:

• John said that some GNCC guys have them lowered to improve handling - sort of like a BMX bike verses a road bicycle, and that was confirmed by the one GNCC racer I communicated with.
• At lest 3 different people including myself 'felt' the suspension was much lower than was specified - I had mine lowered 1.5" and it felt like 2+", another "extremely careful about these things" person that used a different shop had the same experience (1.5" felt like 2+"), and another person that used yet a different shop had their bike lowered 1" and it 'felt' like 1.5". I have an idea why that is and at some point will rip the suspension apart and do some experiments.

As far as how to ship - there are specialized cardboard boxes that can be used but shipping empty boxes around does cost something. In the end I found a suitable cardboard box in a dumpster behind a 'high end' department store, at your location you may not have that option. Gun cases.... let's just say they may draw un-necessary attention to the contents.

I've actually thought about large diameter PVC pipe to ship the suspension in.

 

[WoodsChick]

Just some random thoughts...

I'm 5'1" with a 28" inseam, my weight runs between 135# and 140#, and I have over 20years riding experience.

I've had the suspension re-valved and/or resprung on every dirtbike I've ever owned, and most of my streetbikes as well. Best mods money can buy...for me, anyway. No sense putting pipes or motor mods on a bike that doesn't have the suspension set up specifically for you, as the bike is only going to go as fast as the suspension will allow.

My `07 SM610 was harsh as hell when I got it. I was barely compressing the suspension. No amount of clicker manipulation was going to make it right for me, so I boxed up my forks and shock and sent them to Les. The poor guy was doomed to fail right from the start, as what I was asking for seemed to be nothing short of impossible. I wanted my supermoto bike to carry me through the paved twisties as fast as possible, I wanted my suspension nice and tight, yet plush and compliant. I also wanted it to work well in the dirt for when I wanted to take the 610 on long dualsport rides. There would be a lot of off-road adventuring on crappy jeep roads in my future and I wanted it to work well there, too. Poor Les..."Yeah, I know I only weigh 140#, and the 610 is set up for someone tipping the scales at closer to 200#, but I'm sure you'll figure it out, Les. By the way, can you lower it an inch and a half, too?" Well, Les not only got it damn close, but he had it back to me in time for a long-awaited week of dualsporting in Nevada. He ended up having to respring both front and rear, and he did some sort of wizardry with the valving. It is about 1000% better now. No way could I have lived with it the way it was. Not only does Les know what he's doing with the Husky and GasGas stuff, he's one hell of a nice guy, too.

Here's my shock with the new spring, the stock spring is on the right. Huge difference...

As far as lowering a bike, it comes down to individual preference. I like mine lowered, as I no longer do any motocross and don't really notice the loss of travel on trails. The slightly less ground clearance can be a drag sometimes, but overall it is worth it to me to be a bit closer to the ground in the gnarly stuff.


WoodsChick

 

[Chop Suey]

WoodsChick, thank you so much for the information!

 

[WoodsChick]

Couple of more things:

• John said that some GNCC guys have them lowered to improve handling - sort of like a BMX bike verses a road bicycle, and that was confirmed by the one GNCC racer I communicated with.
• At lest 3 different people including myself 'felt' the suspension was much lower than was specified - I had mine lowered 1.5" and it felt like 2+", another "extremely careful about these things" person that used a different shop had the same experience (1.5" felt like 2+"), and another person that used yet a different shop had their bike lowered 1" and it 'felt' like 1.5". I have an idea why that is and at some point will rip the suspension apart and do some experiments.

Your first point rings true to me, as I've always felt that my bikes handled great in the tight twisty stuff after having them lowered. Even my old plated WR250F seemed to transition better and more quickly than Eric's very well-set-up 426 when rippin' the paved twisties. Everyone that's ridden my CR125 in the tight stuff has said the same thing..that it just corners very well. Hard to beat a lower CG, I guess. I never notice the lost travel when on trails and it makes my life much easier when I can dab through the nasty.

I know we talked last Friday about the bizarre discrepancy between what we asked for in regards to lowering and what we got when all was said and done. Les swears up and down that he only lowered the 610 almost 1.5" via internal suspension mods (the only acceptable method, IMO) ...and I believe he's telling the truth... but the tape measure doesn't lie, either. It is much lower in "real life" now. At first I thought it was too much for the street, but then I realized it was good to be lower to the ground when trying to muscle a 300+lb bike through stuff it wasn't meant to be muscled through At any rate, every bike I've ever had lowered (lowered the KTM myself with RaceTech stuff) was lowered exactly the amount I wanted. I agree with you, Dean, that there must be some internal weirdness in the Husky suspension that translates differently, some kind of different rising rate with the link or whatever...


WoodsChick

 

[WoodsChick]

WoodsChick, thank you so much for the information!

You are more than welcome, Ms. Suey. Stick to your guns and don't accept anything less than what you want, regardless of what the husband thinks. It's your bike and you're the one riding it.


WoodsChick

 

[Chop Suey]

Stick to your guns and don't accept anything less than what you want, regardless of what the husband thinks. It's your bike and you're the one riding it.

Thanks. I think he’s finally on board with having the suspension done, now we’re going to duke it out over who does it. I don’t know which of us is more stubborn and bullheaded. I’ve pretty much made my mind up to go with Les Tinius, he’s thinking MX-Tech. If I lived local to Cogent Dynamics I would be willing to try that shop. Received back a very detailed and very nice email from Rick Tannenbaum and I feel confident he would do a good job. However, he has a conservative approach that may involve a couple of tear downs to get it right. With the possibility of multiple shippings and time involved to install and possibly reinstall the suspension, not sure this would work well for me.

 

[Coffee]

I should point out that it took a "while" to get my suspension work done at MX-Tech. There were family issues both at my end and John's end at the time. I was in no hurry so I told him putting my suspension on low priority was ok... did not think it would take as long it did though (a few months).

Not sure what other peoples experiences are, think those peoples input would be more valid because of the special circumstances. Maybe do some searches for mx-tech on tt and see?

.

 

[silver_fox]

Thanks. I think he’s finally on board with having the suspension done, now we’re going to duke it out over who does it. I don’t know which of us is more stubborn and bullheaded. I’ve pretty much made my mind up to go with Les Tinius, he’s thinking MX-Tech. If I lived local to Cogent Dynamics I would be willing to try that shop. Received back a very detailed and very nice email from Rick Tannenbaum and I feel confident he would do a good job. However, he has a conservative approach that may involve a couple of tear downs to get it right. With the possibility of multiple shippings and time involved to install and possibly reinstall the suspension, not sure this would work well for me.

Les, has a reputation of getting it right the first time. I could'nt be happier with what he did for my forks.