Oil Weights

[mike328]

OK, here is my take.

Not all oils are rated with the same scale. Bel Ray (and other motorcycle specific "transmission" oils like Spectro and Honda HP Trans) that are listed as 80w are in fact the same viscosity as 10-40 4T oil. Bel Ray Gear Saver, Spectro, Honda HP Trans etc are basically 10-40 4T oil relabeled for 2T transmissions and the price doubled. 80-90w GL4 gear oil for differentials in cars, which lots of bikes used in the 70s, is much higher viscosity when COLD but when it gets hot is gets a thin as water, even thinner than ATF. People used rear end gear oil back then because there was nothing better. ATF is around 15-20w and holds its viscosity even a extremely high temps, and is designed from the start to be used in transmissions and wet clutches, auto transmissions have clutches very much like the ones in our bikes. Not all ATF is the same however, if you use ATF only us type F, the reason being Ford designed the "slip" of those years transmissions into the clutch of the transmission, where on all other transmissions the fluid has those dreaded friction modifiers to cause the "slip" between shifts. Modern (since around '98-'00) car oils also have friction modifiers in them that allow cars to get better mileage, bad for wet clutches, and they have all the zinc removed so as to not damage catalytic converters, zinc is a cushioning agent for transmissions, however diesel oils (Rotella, Dello 15-40 etc) do not have those friction modifiers and they have lots of zinc in them. Tractor fluid, like ATF, is designed from the outset to be used with both gears in transmissions and in wet clutches, and its inexpensive. Those pieces of equipment that tractor fluid goes in cost a LOT of money and you can be sure that the fluids that are going into them are good products.

So what do I use? I have used ATF type F for almost 35 years in everything from a '72 Penton 100 to my '01 Honda CR500, but recently I started using tractor fluid. There is nothing special about Husky clutches, old or new, nor any other clutch. A clutch is a clutch, and motorcycle clutches and transmissions, especially in off road bikes, are under relatively light load compared to, say, the clutch and transmission in a 3/4 ton diesel truck. My next choice would be tractor fluid, then diesel 15-40, then "motorcycle" transmission oil, then car oil, and 80-90 GL4 gear oil last.

But thats just me, I'm not going to tell anyone what to use, and I'm not saying of you use something I dont like that you are wrong. Everyone should use what they feel comfortable with, as Philbilly said earlier in this thread, using NO oil is probably the only wrong oil to use.

few points..one of the biggest differences in these gear oils is synthetic or Non synthetic. The vintage "70's bikes use non synthetic. I have no idea about the "newer" 90's 2000 era. I use redline oil in my car... its fortified with zinc...and I have no "catalytic" problems.
one of the beliefs about oil is that thin oil doesn't protect. It does!. An individual conducted a test with o weight oil in his cars and it performed the best. Also he lives in a hot climate. I will look for his findings. It is wayyyy more info than we need but he dispells alot of suspicions.

 

[mike328]

this is a good read about engine oils..and it mentions the zinc issue. but note the comment about viscosity

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

 

[Tinken]

this is a good read about engine oils..and it mentions the zinc issue. but note the comment about viscosity

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

I read the LN engineering article, it was a good read, but I disagree with part of the article. Most people know that Ferarri and Porsche both do extensive testing on oil, both engine and transmission.

On newer water-cooled Porsche engines where Mobil 1 0w40 is recommended, a simple change to an oil with CJ-4 rating or preferably an oil with SL or CI-4 rating as well as a viscosity of 5w40 rather than 0w40 are two changes that can be done in addition to more frequent oil changes to ensure longevity of newer engines. Granted most of these oils will not come with Porsche approval, so if your vehicle is under warranty, defer to the Porsche approval list and select a 5w40 viscosity where appropriate over that of a 0w40, regardless of API rating, as all will carry the most recent API ratings.

The article is proposing to break Porsche warranty and to use a lower grade oil for longevity? I find this very odd. An oil with the rating of SN far exceeds the rating of SL and an oil of 0w40 furthermore improves engine life over 5w40. For the record, 0w40 exactly the same as 5w40, 10w40, 15w40, 20w40 and SAE40 at normal operating temperatures. The difference is that lighter oil lubricates better than thicker oil and 0w does it sooner than the other weights because it does not have to wait to warm to operating temperatures first.

To answer the original question, when a manufacture asks for 20W oil, they usually mean SAE20. Husqvarna specifically states that 20W oil can be 10w20 or SAE 20.

Run whatever makes you feel confident about your engine/transmission, just change it often.

 

[FirstEliminator]

So it seems nobody is satisfied with simply using what is recommended from the manufacturor. So, today I was working on a car at the transmission shop which had a CVT transmission. Just a little regular ATF will supposedly kill a CVT. As the frictional charactoristics of CVT fluid are supposed to be much different than regular ATF. So, it crossed my mind how well the CVT fluid would work in a bike trans. It just might be the next "tractor fluid".

 

[Tinken]

So it seems nobody is satisfied with simply using what is recommended from the manufacturor. So, today I was working on a car at the transmission shop which had a CVT transmission. Just a little regular ATF will supposedly kill a CVT. As the frictional charactoristics of CVT fluid are supposed to be much different than regular ATF. So, it crossed my mind how well the CVT fluid would work in a bike trans. It just might be the next "tractor fluid".

It is best to run exactly what the manufacture recommends and change it often.

 

[FirstEliminator]

It is best to run exactly what the manufacture recommends and change it often.

Best with what may have been available at the time the bike was made. But, 30+ years later? There might be something that works better.

 

[mike328]

I cannot take credit for this, its from another chat site. This was compiled by Aehass. As You read he recommends lighter oils and mineral based.. Remember the Blendzall?...LOL Enjoy!


I reviewed articles from the SAE conferences on power train and fluid systems in Tampa, Fl of October 2004 and the Paris 2000 conference. See SAE SP-1894 and SP-1550. Here are some excepts:

A New Method of Measuring Aeration and Deaeration of Fluids, Morgan et al:
Air in oil causes oxidation, wasted power, higher oil temperatures, loss of lubricity among other adverse effects. Higher RPM increases aeration, so does increasing oil viscosity. (‘Just FYI).

Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up).

Application of a Biodegradable Lubricant in Two Flexible Fuel Vehicles, Jesper Schramm:
Vegetable biodegradable oils were used showing good wear characteristics despite excessive thinning over time. (These may be next! Animal and plant oils have esters as in Red Line oils.)

The SMAC, Under Pressure Oil Aeration Measurement System in Running Engines, Bregent et al:
Oil aging, valve train and bearing problems and thermal problems occur with aeration. Below 110 C there is no problem but as one goes up the aeration ratio increases rapidly. (A cooler running engine from a thinner, faster flowing oil may lubricate better for this reason alone - aeration was a “hot” topic).

Development of the Sequence IV A Valve Train Wear Lubrication Test:Part 1, Sagawa et al:
Viscosity data reveals that the more viscous oil did not significantly alter the cam angle of minimum oil film thickness. Of greater importance is the finding that the higher viscosity oil continued to exhibit boundary layer lubrication. (Ergo thicker is not necessarily better).
The effect of engine intake air humidity was significant so that tests are now done with specified humidity conditions.
It was postulated that fuel dilution of oil would elevate cam wear. Fuel dilution of 4.5 percent did not effect wear. (This would have the effect of lowering the viscosity about 1 grade).

The Effects of Crankcase Oil Viscosity on Engine Friction at Low Temperatures, Cockbill et al:
By using lower viscosity oils there is less friction, improved cold weather starting, improved fuel economy, a savings of starting system components and less wear by increasing the rate of oil pressurization and flow in the upper oil galleries.

Evaluation of Oil Performance Using the Tu High Temperature Engine Test With a View to Extending Oil Drain Intervals, Bouvier et al:
Oxidation and thickening is the limiting factor for oil longevity. Generally modern oils thin only 10 percent then thicken up to 60 percent within as little as 96 hrs. of operation ( -in the accelerated test engine. Let me comment that all test criteria are designed to mimic real engine operating conditions but at an accelerated rate).
There is accelerated acidification and corrosive wear that occurs.
Oil thickening was also time dependent. Thickening at 30,000 km was 2 times more when done over 21 months than over a 10 month period. (Change your oil every spring as I suggested before).

Development of the Sequence III G Engine Oil Certification Test, Clark et al:
Engine tests were made more severe again. (Over the years the oil ratings have improved but this has always been despite the increase in testing severity. It was III ...D, E, F, and is now III G). The oil inlet temperature was decreased from 155 to 150 C. The test was 80 and is now 100 hours. There were 8 oil level adjustments allowed now there are 5. The inlet engine air temperature was raised from 27 to 35 C. The engine load was increased 25 percent.
Despite all this the current 0W-20 oils were still GF-4 compliant and showed minimal wear characteristics as long as ZDP levels were higher than 0.03 percent. (The SM rated oils I have seen so far have levels of 0.08).

Other papers showed how they always consider older engines when formulating new oils for full backwards compatibility.
There was a lot on using thinner oils and how they do not result in excessive wear as previously feared. This is in part because of modern additives.

This stuff was very, very interesting. I will reiterate that you should use the latest, highest rated oil in your car regardless of it’s age. By definition all oils are backward compatible.
Use a grade thinner than you may at first think is best. Always use the oil with the lowest first number in the grade - use 0W-30 instead of 10W-30 and for many reasons use synthetic but mainly because of less wear and tear at start-up!

More:
Another question posed to me was the importance of viscosity index. I say look at the numbers not the index. The index does not tell you what thickness the oil is at various temperatures. It is actually outdated and arbitrary. A less arbitrary indication of the change in viscosity with temperature is the viscosity temperature coefficient. From:
Physical and Chemical Properties of Mineral Oils That Affect Lubrication, Douglas Godfrey, William R. Herguth, Herguth Laboratories Inc., 101 Corporate Place - P.O. Box B - Vallejo, Ca. 94590-6968, 1995.


Here is some comparative viscosity data form 3 years ago.
Kinematic Viscosity in cSt of several Mobil 1 oils compared to the Red Line 5W-20:

T(C)* 0W30 * 5W30 * 10W30 * 0W20 * RL 5W20

-20° 1994.8 2225.1 3424.8 1712.7 2995.8
-10° 872.4 944.7 1332.9 730.8 1165.3
0° 428.3 452.9 595.7 352.8 521.4 ( zero F)
10° 231.3 240.1 298.3 188.5 261.8
20° 135.3 138.3 164.1 109.5 144.5 (68 degrees F)
30° 84.6 85.5 97.6 68.3 86.3
40° 56.0 56.0 62.0 45.1 55.0 (104 degrees F)
50° 38.8 38.5 41.6 31.3 37.0
60° 28.1 27.7 29.2 22.6 26.1
70° 21.0 20.6 21.4 17.0 19.2 (158 degrees F)
80° 16.2 15.8 16.1 13.1 14.5
90° 12.8 12.4 12.5 10.4 11.3
100° 10.3 10.0 10.0 8.4 9.1 (212degrees F)
cP @ 150°C
HTHS 3.0 3.1 3.2 2.6 3.3

From: Lubrication, Tribology & Motorsport, R.I. Taylor
Shell Global Solutions (UK), Cheshire Innovation Park, PO Box 1, Chester, CH1 3SH, UK:

We discuss the effect of lubricant viscometry on
piston assembly friction. For the Formula 1 engine, using
the same data as for Figure 4, and assuming a top ring
radius of curvature of 10 cm, Table 6 summarizes the
predicted top ring friction power loss, and the predicted
minimum oil film thickness, for different lubricants:
Table 6:
Lubricant....Power loss (Watts)....Minimum oil film thickness (Pm)
SAE-20W/50........402.................0.76
SAE-15W/40........375.................0.73
SAE-10W/30........313.................0.62
SAE-0W/20..........259.................0.51

People think that a 20 wt. oil is 60 percent thinner than a 50 wt. oil, not so. It is only 30 percent thinner.

Previously reported:
I peeked at my neighbors manual from his Mercedes SL 65 AMG V12 biturbo with around 650 BHP?and 700 of torque. It calls for any MB 229.5 certified engine oils that include:
Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40 or Pennzoil European Formula Ultra 5W-30 or Quaker State European Formula Ultra 5W-30 oils.
All 3 of these oils are specified to run at all ambient temperatures from well below freezing from Alaska to Orlando, Florida. Two of the 3 recommended oils are 30 wt. oils. Ferrari is delivered with Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 but for the Enzo.

Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear By Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company:

Viscosity and Wear
Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear...

Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.

Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F. difference between viscosity grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.

In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range.

Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.

(If your engine is 20 F cooler running a thinner oil then the viscosity is the same as the next higher weight grade. Also, as wear diminishes with lesser operating temperatures then we have a benefit. Another benefit is that the thinner oil is better at startup where the majority of wear occurs.)

 

[Tinken]

Best with what may have been available at the time the bike was made. But, 30+ years later? There might be something that works better.

Yes and no.

For example, let's say a 2010 txc 450 is spec'd by the factory to use 10w50. This grade is based upon the engine using conventional mineral based oil which has a base weight of 10. Mineral oil has additives to increase it's viscosity (thickness) to that of what 50 grade would be at 150°C. Husqvarna engineers have calculated that the clearances of the 450 allow for 50 grade oil to pass a sufficient amount of hot oil across mating surfaces and in turn will provide an amount of lubrication which meets their specifications. Even if the additives were to diminish, the engine oil would never decrease in grade past the 10 grade base.

Synthetic oils are opposite. A 10w50 synthetic oil has a base weight of 50, but has additives to thin its grade to 10 when cold. Therefore when a synthetic oil's additives diminish, the base oil is 50, not 10.

This is where something "might work better". Everyone knows that 98% of wear on an engine/transmission is during start up. Obviously it is easier to pump a thinner oil than a thicker oil, say 5w50 or 0w50. As long as the 50 viscosity remains.

Some people will add a 60 grade oil (10w60) to an engine that specifies 50, hoping to increase lubrication in the event that the engine overheats. This actually lowers the lubrication to mating surfaces because while pressure increases from the heavier viscosity, lubrication inversely decreases. Lowering the viscosity to 40 grade oil (10w40) will increase the lubrication, but may sacrifice the pressure needed to deliver the oil to mating surfaces.

I suggest that the grade of oil when operating temperatures (150°C) have been reached, that the grade the manufacture recommends should be used. The grade of oil based on cool temperatures may be changed to something that "works better".

 

[woody]

I read the entire thread and still don't know the best tranny oil to use

 

[justintendo]

I read the entire thread and still don't know the best tranny oil to use

dont overthink it too much..as long as the oil plays ok with clutches, and has good wear additives with around the right weight, its fine. many options to choose from. 2 stroke bottom ends are easier in ways to choose an oil for than 4 strokes.

 

[suprize]

ive had good results from atf - f and briggs and stratton 20 weight. both cheap and easily obtainable...change after every big ride, no problems and my clutch is stuffed (new plates in the cupboard).

 

[Aviyaytor]

Sooooo..... The answer is?

 

[stormer254]

Sooooo..... The answer is?

Yes, you need to use oil in/on the rotating parts of your motor bike!!

 

[suprize]

go wit h briggs and stratton oil - 20 wt, ya cant go wrong there

 

[reveille]

I like olive oil...yummy!

 

[Picklito]

....................l took Dirt dames advice, i now run ATF type F, this is my 4th big bore 80s Husky, it now has the best engagement of all of them. lm a convert.

Yup, me too.

 

[silverstreakNZ]

I put type f in the 82 500 for the first time this year .
Waaay nicer shifting

 

[Picklito]

Yuh know... I hate an oil thread as much as anybody, but thought I'd throw this out there as food for thought: IF you choose to try a different trans oil, for whatever reason, give it a few changes before you decide whether or not you like the new oil. It does take a while for a fiber plate clutch system to take on the characteristics of the new oil. You might like it better or worse after a few oil changes, as the fibers release the old and gain the character of the new. Just something I've noticed. But, all things considered, I'm an ATF guy. If you're an engine oil type... just avoid the energy-conserving labels. Keep it clean and ride it like...

 

[suprize]

i only use the B&S oil as its front and centre in the mower shop. i have to chase the autopro guys to dig out a 5 l of atf -f. its in the hardly used dept these days

 

[Aviyaytor]

Yes, you need to use oil in/on the rotating parts of your motor bike!!