Question/idea regarding 02 sensor...

[kyle01]

i didn't see the micrometer showing that's it's actually a little shorter than mine... I recon 2" is about the magic number.

 

[drzcharlie]

So, the baseline is going to end up being very near AFR 13.2 after riding this morning. 13.2:1 is 10% richer than lambda which is 14.7:1 If the extension is richening the mixture we should be able to see the difference at "hot" idle. I can overlay the two charts for comparison once I get the "extend-a-bung".

 

[glitch_oz]

i didn't see the micrometer showing that's it's actually a little shorter than mine... I recon 2" is about the magic number.

Thanks

 

[glitch_oz]

So, the baseline is going to end up being very near AFR 13.2 after riding this morning. 13.2:1 is 10% richer than lambda which is 14.7:1 If the extension is richening the mixture we should be able to see the difference at "hot" idle. I can overlay the two charts for comparison once I get the "extend-a-bung".

The magic number is 10% richer than stock?
Not to forget that additionally to the O2 spacers some spoofer might/will/ could be needed to look after "the other end" to get the overall results (and something the ECU can't cancel out)

 

[drzcharlie]

I am not willing to make that call yet Glitch. 10% really woke the bike up and me when I twist the throttle. More testing is needed, I am going to go to an AFR 13.3 next and keep working my way through settings until I get a good mix of performance and economy.

 

[kyle01]

i just made another spacer of the same length and i'll get it out to you tonight. that being said, my bike had a couple of hiccups today. no stalling, but a few weird things. i don't know about you guys, but if i don't see my tach make a full sweep when i turn the key i don't bother starting it... i always make sure it does it's ritual. anyhow, a little disappointed that the gremlins arent 100% at bay as i thought but it's still a big improvement. numbers don't lie, so we'll see what charlie comes up with. i'm guessing a slight improvement over lambda, but nowhere near 10% Just for curiosity Charlie, what kind of mileage are you getting at 13%?? I ran another 200 miles today and my average is at 56.4.

 

[LainattheWired]

Put one on today, and it is a noticeable improvement. Amazing actually. Need more miles though to see if it fixes the stumble.

 

[glitch_oz]

As an aside...anyone with the SWMotech crashbars will have a clearance problem from a certain point onwards. The max straight spacer that can be fitted is about 40mm/ 1.5" net. Net meaning the center part without the threads either side.
Even then, the left crashbar rear mount might have to be loosened for the few minutes it takes to mount the O2 sensor extension and sensor itself.
Any more than that and the crashbar mounting tongue has to be modded....or the extension tube has to be made up from 2 shorter ones, one of them an angled 45deg and a set-nut to make the sensor itself clear the crashbar as well as everything else in the area.

45deg angled extension http://tinyurl.com/osq4esu

There are also some Stainless extensions around, straight and angled.
Ebay for "stainless O2 Spacer Lambda Sensor Oxygen Extender extension"

 

[mag00]

I was wondering... take a look at the drawing and let me know what ya think. At a lower rpm, the venturi effect would be minimal, as rpm went up, more exhaust would be pulled across the o2 in theory at least.

 

[kyle01]

I sent a spacer to Charlie tonight. If you look at my pic, you'll notice I have the sw motech crash bars- and my 2" bung fits fine. I machine the hex off of the second spacer(it's 2 spacers threaded together) so no worries there. I've got maybe 300 miles on this mod and I'm really liking it. 3-4k rpm feels so torquey now that I find myself short shifting to stay in that range around town. Such a difference. Also on the expressway I'm really impressed with it's top gear power from 60-80+ mph. Really solid acceleration. Hard to explain, it almost seems like a different engine.

 

[kyle01]

Also- low fuel light came on at 165 miles. I fueled up at 170 (3.1gal) so I'm right around 57mpg

 

[glitch_oz]

... I machine the hex off of the second spacer(it's 2 spacers threaded together) so no worries there..

All good then...was looking at the hex of the sensor itself and assumed the extensions would be similar or possibly even bigger.
Still running the Eruption...or only the O2 spacer?
It certainly sounds good thus far....can't wait to see what Charlie comes up with.

 

[drzcharlie]

I ran my current fueling (AFR 13.2) for about 150 miles yesterday and will ride forty or fifty today. The baseline is stable now. So, I will run two separate charts and post them along with an excel spread sheet. If there is a difference, it should show up. Can I post attachments in the form of a .csv file on this forum?

 

[isldtime]

I think drzcharlie is going to be our best resource on this project. When doing research on the net, better gas mileage and fooling the ecm when you have high performance cats on a street car seem to be the uses for the extender.
I read a post from a guy that said an oxygen sensor is nothing more than a temp sensor. Very confusing.
We need to see what Charlie comes up with on his AFR equipment.

 

[drzcharlie]

o2 - 101

This is the only sensor that makes its own voltage (kinda). The voltage signal is a direct result of the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When the exhaust gases are at least 600 degrees F, the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor's tip produces a voltage signal that fluctuates according to the difference in oxygen content between exhaust and outside air.

The higher the concentration of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, the lower the differential across the sensor tip and the lower the sensor's voltage output. The sensor's output ranges from 0.1 volts (lean) to 0.9 volts (rich).

A perfectly balanced (stoichiometric) fuel mixture of 14.7:1, gives a reading of around 0.5 volts our bike seems to be an exception to some of these rules though. O2 sensors like ours have three wires and an internal heating element to help the sensor reach operating temperature more quickly (in our case about 30 seconds) ours have two whites, a black (ground) and a gray wire. The heater keeps the sensor from cooling off when the engine is idling. An O2 sensor's normal life span is about 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

Sensor accuracy can also be affected by air leaks in the intake or exhaust manifold, or even a fouled spark plug. A misfiring plug allows unburned oxygen to pass through into the exhaust, causing the O2 sensor to give a false lean indication and this is why I am doing the testing I am doing. I want the unburned fuel to be as little as possible and the miles per gallon as high as possible.

The ECU is constantly sampling oxygen and fuel mixtures in the exhaust stream. That is why o2 spoofers work and AIT spoofers don't work with our ECU. The ECU can eventually "learn" that the AIT is giving it false temperature information and reverts back to stock settings. However, the o2 spoofers just shift the o2 sensors voltage to show a leaner condition (different voltage) which in turn tells the ECU "Hey, we gotta add fuel". Since it (the ECU) is always sampling the mixture it cannot negate the new voltages, it can only do what it's programmed to do and that is to add fuel when the mixture is lean.

To meet California regulations the bike is tuned extremely lean.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[isldtime]

o2 - 101

This is the only sensor that makes its own voltage (kinda). The voltage signal is a direct result of the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When the exhaust gases are at least 600 degrees F, the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor's tip produces a voltage signal that fluctuates according to the difference in oxygen content between exhaust and outside air.

The higher the concentration of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, the lower the differential across the sensor tip and the lower the sensor's voltage output. The sensor's output ranges from 0.1 volts (lean) to 0.9 volts (rich).

A perfectly balanced (stoichiometric) fuel mixture of 14.7:1, gives a reading of around 0.5 volts our bike seems to be an exception to some of these rules though. O2 sensors like ours have three wires and an internal heating element to help the sensor reach operating temperature more quickly (in our case about 30 seconds) ours have two whites, a black (ground) and a gray wire. The heater keeps the sensor from cooling off when the engine is idling. An O2 sensor's normal life span is about 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

Sensor accuracy can also be affected by air leaks in the intake or exhaust manifold, or even a fouled spark plug. A misfiring plug allows unburned oxygen to pass through into the exhaust, causing the O2 sensor to give a false lean indication and this is why I am doing the testing I am doing. I want the unburned fuel to be as little as possible and the miles per gallon as high as possible.

The ECU is constantly sampling oxygen and fuel mixtures in the exhaust stream. That is why o2 spoofers work and AIT spoofers don't work with our ECU. The ECU can eventually "learn" that the AIT is giving it false temperature information and reverts back to stock settings. However, the o2 spoofers just shift the o2 sensors voltage to show a leaner condition (different voltage) which in turn tells the ECU "Hey, we gotta add fuel". Since it (the ECU) is always sampling the mixture it cannot negate the new voltages, it can only do what it's programmed to do and that is to add fuel when the mixture is lean.

To meet California regulations the bike is tuned extremely lean.

Hope that helps a bit.

So this points back to the idea that if a resistor value that changes the O2 feedback voltage 10% might get simular to what your system is doing. A $.25 spoofer??

 

[drzcharlie]

I'm running 7, 1/2 watt, 1K ohm resistors in parallel between the two white leads of the o2 sensor, but not for the reasons you think. Without them the Wide Band sensor creates an EWS error on the dashboard. Voltages and lambda settings are more important.

 

[glitch_oz]

I read a post from a guy that said an oxygen sensor is nothing more than a temp sensor. Very confusing.
We need to see what Charlie comes up with on his AFR equipment.

EXACTLY!!


And not all that confusing...there's a lot of garbage on the net, everyone's a specialist or knows the guru down the road, arghh.

 

[glitch_oz]

o2 - 101

This is the only sensor that makes its own voltage (kinda). The voltage signal is a direct result of the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When the exhaust gases are at least 600 degrees F, the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor's tip produces a voltage signal that fluctuates according to the difference in oxygen content between exhaust and outside air.

The higher the concentration of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, the lower the differential across the sensor tip and the lower the sensor's voltage output. The sensor's output ranges from 0.1 volts (lean) to 0.9 volts (rich).

A perfectly balanced (stoichiometric) fuel mixture of 14.7:1, gives a reading of around 0.5 volts our bike seems to be an exception to some of these rules though. O2 sensors like ours have three wires and an internal heating element to help the sensor reach operating temperature more quickly (in our case about 30 seconds) ours have two whites, a black (ground) and a gray wire. The heater keeps the sensor from cooling off when the engine is idling. An O2 sensor's normal life span is about 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

Sensor accuracy can also be affected by air leaks in the intake or exhaust manifold, or even a fouled spark plug. A misfiring plug allows unburned oxygen to pass through into the exhaust, causing the O2 sensor to give a false lean indication and this is why I am doing the testing I am doing. I want the unburned fuel to be as little as possible and the miles per gallon as high as possible.

The ECU is constantly sampling oxygen and fuel mixtures in the exhaust stream. That is why o2 spoofers work and AIT spoofers don't work with our ECU. The ECU can eventually "learn" that the AIT is giving it false temperature information and reverts back to stock settings. However, the o2 spoofers just shift the o2 sensors voltage to show a leaner condition (different voltage) which in turn tells the ECU "Hey, we gotta add fuel". Since it (the ECU) is always sampling the mixture it cannot negate the new voltages, it can only do what it's programmed to do and that is to add fuel when the mixture is lean.

To meet California regulations the bike is tuned extremely lean.

Hope that helps a bit.

Whooooha!! This is a reference script!!
Thank you, Sir....sweet post!

 

[glitch_oz]

So this points back to the idea that if a resistor value that changes the O2 feedback voltage 10% might get simular to what your system is doing. A $.25 spoofer??

That's exactly what I tried to say when I mentioned Nick in Greece and his set-value resistor plugs, which replace the O2 sensor entirely for quite a few bikes on the market.
Got a K9 V-Strom 650, which have some lean-issues, and his set-value CO2 plug is the universal fix for that.
Unplug sensor, plug in resistor and there's your "ideal" fuel setting ALL the time, fooling the ECU into a fixed value/ enrichment setting.

According to Nick, this doesn't work the same way with the Husky ECU's....which leads me to consider, that the spoofer will still do part of the job on top of what the CO2 mod can deliver.
Then again, this is more gut-feel than sound reasoning.