Suspension set up..

[Quirky]

v

I don't know a whole lot about suspension, but I have the tendency to believe that a 400+ pound adventure bike at dirt bike speeds is only asking for trouble in both suspension and braking performance. This bike was built with the idea that you were going to load it down with a bunch of camping gear and head for the wild blue yonder at a moderate pace. For this, I feel the bikes suspension hit it's mark almost perfectly. I would rather take it over a technical section loaded down than not and that is exactly what I want. That being said, sending off your suspension to the guru is a fantastic idea…..if you are not using the bike for it's intended purpose. But as soon as you do that you will ruin the bikes ability to travel loaded, which is fine if you ride the bike almost exclusively unladen. Quirky and Rod65 seem to fall in this category so I am sure there are many others. Great thread!

IMHO only, I believe the manufacturers built this bike to be a compremise for lots of tasks, at a price, to suit the masses and for the business owners to make a buck. It clearly wasn't built just for the blue yonder. I also do not see a problem with the braking department on dirt tracks, yes it needs room to slow down but seems that Terra's have very capable stoppers on long twisty decents on tarmac. I am not speaking for Rod about what he carries on his bike, but I have previously stated 24kg for fuel&tanks always carrying 10kg of gear and 30kg or so for desert trips. So maybe our pack mules are similar? Yes I would be asking a lot of the frame, wheels and suspension. So good suspension will help wheels, frame and rider stay on track and just maybe one day my TR650 will feel better in the bush on a dirt road than my beheemoth r1200gs, because right now it doesn't, giving me the opinion that the suspension on the TR is just not that great for the dirt.

Just straightening out some of the details.

Cheers,

Q

 

[FabOneUp]

v


IMHO only, I believe the manufacturers built this bike to be a compremise for lots of tasks, at a price, to suit the masses and for the business owners to make a buck. It clearly wasn't built just for the blue yonder. I also do not see a problem with the braking department on dirt tracks, yes it needs room to slow down but seems that Terra's have very capable stoppers on long twisty decents on tarmac. I am not speaking for Rod about what he carries on his bike, but I have previously stated 24kg for fuel&tanks always carrying 10kg of gear and 30kg or so for desert trips. So maybe our pack mules are similar? Yes I would be asking a lot of the frame, wheels and suspension. So good suspension will help wheels, frame and rider stay on track and just maybe one day my TR650 will feel better in the bush on a dirt road than my beheemoth r1200gs, because right now it doesn't, giving me the opinion that the suspension on the TR is just not that great for the dirt.

Just straightening out some of the details.

Cheers,

Q

I should have also put IMHO before I stated that it was built for a load. That is the conclusion that Ken Webb and I came up with on our 2200 mile trek this last summer when the bikes suspension performed flawlessly along with the rest of the bike. We are both extremely pleased and felt we were using the bike for its intended purpose.
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/cobdr-or-terradise.34678/

 

[Mark Regier]

As a bit of a pragmatist, I think I'll start with changing the weight of the fork oil. I thought I read somewhere on this site that the RH fork is in charge of compression and the LH side is where the rebound happens. I'll investigate myself, but just wondering if anyone (with more time than $$$) has varied the fork oil weight yet.

 

[drzcharlie]

Rugged Exposure changed the fork oil weight in one fork leg (I think it was compression). He put in transmission fluid. I haven't a clue as to what kind or what viscosity might be but he reports good results. His excellent write up on the process (forks seal replacement too) can be found on ADV here: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23286707&postcount=2814

 

[Motosportz]

Rugged Exposure changed the fork oil weight in one fork leg (I think it was compression). He put in transmission fluid. I haven't a clue as to what kind or what viscosity might be but he reports good results. His excellent write up on the process (forks seal replacement too) can be found on ADV here: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23286707&postcount=2814

ATF I'm sure. Usually a good bit stiffer viscosity wise than suspension fluid but uber slick. I use it a lot in forks I revalve and like it.

Good info ion that link and funny writeup. Click the top "show all posts" to see all of it.

 

[Kenneth Webb]

I second FabOneUp's comment on the loaded bike. I believe it was set up for rider and passenger. We really hammered these machines over some very rough track with a full load of gear; saddle bags full and top duffel full. Bike worked well that way. Unloaded it is pretty stiff off road. With a Donlop 908RR rear I never bottomed but I think Fab may have once. Maybe we weren't going fast enough? Still, I am watching closely for good improvement possibilities.

 

[msmith345]

Rugged Exposure changed the fork oil weight in one fork leg (I think it was compression). He put in transmission fluid. I haven't a clue as to what kind or what viscosity might be but he reports good results. His excellent write up on the process (forks seal replacement too) can be found on ADV here: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23286707&postcount=2814

There are a lot of things in that write up that should not be done. It'll work, but it gives you a really high chance to F things up. Most notable are:
1. Installing a fork seal like that gives a very high chance of damaging the seal on the edge that retains the bushing (protip: a cut seal means a leaky fork when you put it all back together). Instead use a plastic bag pulled tight to smooth that transition, cut the bag and pull from under the seal once it's past that edge.
2. Never use crescent wrenches. Just don't. Your parts will last longer without having the corners all jacked up. Proper sized wrench is crucial, unless you plan on doing this once or twice then selling the bike to an unsuspecting buyer.
3. There is no need to "hammer" the bottom of the fork. That is unless you want to break that piece of cast aluminum. Dust seals are made to be removed from the fork tubes and re-installed with only a flat head screwdriver and bare hands. They should be pulled down and washed out after heavy mud or sand. Notice the wear on the chrome? That's from stuff getting up under the seal and wearing it down.
4. The wear on that fork tube is severe, that tube should not be re-used without having that fixed. The chrome is slicker than the metal, so that wear is going to go a lot quicker since the chrome is worn through. When that metal wears, that fork can not be trusted.
5. Instead of using a dipstick, it's much easier to either pick up the tool for it, which is a large syringe connected to a piece of metal tube with a clamp on it and a hose connecting the two, or to make one. That way you just over fill, then suck it back out. Example: Here's one that is a motion pro ($$$), you can find them in the Tusk or similar variety for closer to $10. http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/MOTION-PRO-FORK-OIL-LEVEL-GAUGE
6. Only use a small flat head screw driver like that to release the clip. Use a larger one and you won't put all the cuts into the end of the fork tube.
7. Don't use a screwdriver to set the seals. It's a damn good way to cut them. Then you have to start the process over again and buy new seals.

Just because you might be able to get away with doing something that way, does not mean you should and you shouldn't use that as a way to show someone how to do it.

 

[duibhceK]

5. Instead of using a dipstick, it's much easier to either pick up the tool for it, which is a large syringe connected to a piece of metal tube with a clamp on it and a hose connecting the two, or to make one. That way you just over fill, then suck it back out. Example: Here's one that is a motion pro ($$$), you can find them in the Tusk or similar variety for closer to $10. http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/MOTION-PRO-FORK-OIL-LEVEL-GAUGE

Or be a cheap-skate, use a syringe with some flexible tubing, take a pen and a ruler and mark the height of the required air pocket on the tubing. Put it in the fork with the marking flush to the top of the fork leg and suck out excess fluid until all you are getting is air. Done.

 

[Quirky]

Yeeeehawww! Sounds like my TR and its suspension upgrade will finaly be ready tomorrow. It's taken a fair while, that rear shock was a bit different to sort out. They have made my rear shock a little longer, re-buildable and servicable.

 

[Quirky]

I can now report that the suspension feels fantastic. The front end now sits around 30mm taller, holds up real well under brakes, no more stupid clicking rattles and just a nice firm front end that isn't harsh on the small corragates either. At this stage we just may have to back off the .72 springs preload just a little as when the fuel tanks are down to the last 10litres it feels like it needs some extra sag. I'll leave all well alone for now and try it out in different conditions with some luggage.
The rear shock has been totally re-built, remote charge point fitted for servicing, spring and plates, re-valved and the back end is now 20mm taller and the handling and traction thats now available is great. It will be interesting to see if this back tyre will still scrub out on me.
So thanks to Ian at Pro-Moto suspension for tuning this bikes suspension up for me. For the Terra owners in oz. look him up ey, he knows how these terra's work now, starting to get some good data together and can customise for you and your riding.
http://www.localdirectories.com.au/Glendon-Brook,NSW/Pro-Moto-Suspension/profile/Lr8E

 

[nev..]

I can now report that the suspension feels fantastic.
http://www.localdirectories.com.au/Glendon-Brook,NSW/Pro-Moto-Suspension/profile/Lr8E

Thanks for the info Quirky. What was the damage to your wallet for all that work? Was it necessary to raise the front and rear ends or was that just something you wanted ?

 

[Quirky]

Hi Nev..
Ian quoted me $900 for the whole job prior and charged me that amount, Ian wouldn't take more or tell me the true value because he had my bike too long and was glad he had a TR to have a look at. Ian didn't count on needing to out source part of the job (rear shock) which adds some cost and added a time delay due to the xmas break. The rear shock needs more work than he first realised so it will be a little more expensive than he charged me. Front end costs all depends if you need springs, with springs, spacers, valves, oil and labour I think around $300.

Increasing height was sort of for my needs. Remember Ian will customise the build for your needs. My rear half worn out 908rr tyre was srubbing out, I simply said "fix this, as I want to try d606 rears", so back end travel was increased up 20mm longer. From stock, headshake issues and quick twitchy steering had me needing to increase front fork leg length as far as possible which is circa 7mm from the stock position. This helped, then adding the safari tank added slightly to the headshake, I am using a hp4 starcross tyre that could be causing some or all of the headshake. Wheels are balanced and not using rimlocks. Thats why the front end leg length got increased by 25mm for the adjustability, so the back end is up 20mm and front up 30mm. Anyways this has slowed down the steering just enough to help with the headshake issues and still allows for quick enough steering.

Adding length to the front isn't necessary but from my experiance it helps. "Rod65" got his front done and I believe still has the .68 oem springs but Ian done some valve magic and added a 25mm spacer for added length.

You out there Rod?
One day we'll catch up and you can feel how good that back wheel now tracks, first hand. But with a tall seat fitted and now near 30mm taller suspension the ground is a long way down.

Cheers,

Q

 

[Rod65]

Hi Nev..
Ian quoted me $900 for the whole job prior and charged me that amount, Ian wouldn't take more or tell me the true value because he had my bike too long and was glad he had a TR to have a look at. Ian didn't count on needing to out source part of the job (rear shock) which adds some cost and added a time delay due to the xmas break. The rear shock needs more work than he first realised so it will be a little more expensive than he charged me. Front end costs all depends if you need springs, with springs, spacers, valves, oil and labour I think around $300.

Increasing height was sort of for my needs. Remember Ian will customise the build for your needs. My rear half worn out 908rr tyre was srubbing out, I simply said "fix this, as I want to try d606 rears", so back end travel was increased up 20mm longer. From stock, headshake issues and quick twitchy steering had me needing to increase front fork leg length as far as possible which is circa 7mm from the stock position. This helped, then adding the safari tank added slightly to the headshake, I am using a hp4 starcross tyre that could be causing some or all of the headshake. Wheels are balanced and not using rimlocks. Thats why the front end leg length got increased by 25mm for the adjustability, so the back end is up 20mm and front up 30mm. Anyways this has slowed down the steering just enough to help with the headshake issues and still allows for quick enough steering.

Adding length to the front isn't necessary but from my experiance it helps. "Rod65" got his front done and I believe still has the .68 oem springs but Ian done some valve magic and added a 25mm spacer for added length.

You out there Rod?
One day we'll catch up and you can feel how good that back wheel now tracks, first hand. But with a tall seat fitted and now near 30mm taller suspension the ground is a long way down.

Cheers,

Q

As Greg has said I'm still running the standard springs,but have spacers fitted & yes Ian worked his magic with valving. The way the valving was it was not working properly.
With spacers fitted I have heaps of adjustment to play with. I'm running my forks about 12mm up at the moment & am loving the way the bike handles & turns now. I'm recovering from a busted foot courtesy of the Terra & not wanting to steer & the couple of rides I have done the bike handles great. It has been the rider who is not performing very well.
So would I recommend to get the suspension done. Hell yes.

Cheers Rod

 

[Mark Regier]

FWIW, I decided to bite the bullet and take the forks off the bike and to a suspension specialist. Jesse Black of Dirt Lab, Salt Lake City, handled the job. The seals were leaking anyway, and he was able to get me seals, wipers, and oil for $100, instead of the $160 the stealership wanted for just seals and dust wipers. I gave him another $100 to try to revalve them. After 2 weeks, I just picked them up and the news wasn't particularly good. Fork internals don't have valves, just holes in the lower shaft for oil to pass through, and a kind of piston (attached to the rod) higher up in the fork uppers. This piston is visible in rugged exposure's how-to on changing seals. Jesse basically stated that there's nothing else that can be done to improve these forks without spending a lot of money. He suggested I buy a dirt bike. I'd attach photos, but they'd only show a pair of clean forks with new seals and my sad face. I can confirm that the LH and RH side forks seem to have similar compression rates, but the LH side has a much slower rebound rate with an audible fluid sound. Jesse stated that the fork internals looked identical, so your guess is as good as mine. Fluid was swapped with some 5 wt racing synthetic, and air gap was set at 130mm.

 

[Quirky]

Someone had best find a better suspension guru. You guys need a suspension guru willing to build up their own valve, it is truly possible to fix them up.

 

[Greg Jetnikoff]

Mark. The pistons are where the valves are. They contain leaf washers that control the flow. The left and right piston valves are different and the holes in the inner cyl are at opposite ends so the effect on damping MUST be different. It IS possible that the forks were changed during production. Husky and Italians are notorious ( famous?) for doing that sort of thing, but my forks definitely have rebound both sides and extra COMPRESSION on one side ( left from what I can remember , it was a while ago, but there is a post somewhere on this forum) and that side has ( or SEEMS to have) less rebound. I didn't test the actual values.
It should be possible to just replace the piston valves to change the damping but you need to change it properly. You could just change the leaves but you really need a shock dyno to do it properly. Usually the stock valves in this sort of bike have small orifaces and benefit from replacements with bigger holes and appropiate pistons. I have been meaning to approach Teknik ( australia) about it but I am still up in the air about whether I will use the bike as a road only bike ( it is a Strada) or an adventure bike so won't do that until I decide. I will get an aftermarket rear shock though as I am not inpressed with the construction of the shock itself. It may be Sachs designed but it is Chinese made and looks like a money saving part.
This pic shows the piston ( valved) from one side. It is not a simple ringed block piston but a pass through one

 

[Baddrapp]

I wish someone had a cartridge kit for our bikes. Something like the Ohlin TTX22 kits.

 

[Baddrapp]

I might run over to Zip Ty racing next week and see if they can doing anything with our suspension.

 

[Quirky]

I might run over to Zip Ty racing next week and see if they can doing anything with our suspension.

Not sure if it helps either, but I do remember a comment from Ian "that our TR's suspension work kind of similar to a ktm 65". Maybe the fix is for it is also similar.

 

[Clete]

I might run over to Zip Ty racing next week and see if they can doing anything with our suspension.

I had started to send Tinken a message today, but got distracted by work....