SWM is back

[racemx904]

They are other forms of racing in the US besides MX/SX.... and KTM starting winning big off road races in the US in the desert in the early 90s....

And I did say most bikes never see any track but they still want whats winning.... if your bike isnt out there winning you wont sell very many bikes.... Look at Husky for example... for the most part all they sold was the very newest bike and then the rest were 3-4 year old models that were sitting on the floor.....

You can have the greatest bike on earth for dirt cheap but if people dont see it somewhere then they arent going to know it exist and hence cant/wont buy.... Look how much work it has taken Beta, Gas Gas and Sherco to get where they are.... Beta has finally started selling, Gas Gas is struggling to sell any and Sherco you almost never see....

I hope you bring them in and they are worth a darn because I like the Italian Husky but to bring in bikes and say I can just put it on Social Media and we will sell tons is only fooling yourselves....

 

[Erik Italhusky]

No, he was the long tome importer until BMW took over and decided to change things and reinvent the wheel which was already round. They did the same thing here in the US and also took 2 steps back on it as well.

I think they made the right call. MotoMondo was/is doing a great job for us dealers and our customers. Very knowledgeable as well.

 

[Auto5guy]

Advising SWM to chase after national and world titles right out of the gate is the fastest way to send them into bankruptcy and ensure they don't make it out of the teens. Fielding race teams is EXPENSIVE!

I absolutely agree that the KTM business plan in the 90's is the model for any small dirt bike manufacturer to follow. Only I disagree that it was desert racing (which only half the country can even engage in and nobody pays attention to) that led to the success.

KTM went bankrupt in the mid 80's. Entering the 90's KTM was basically starting from scratch. From my vantage point their business plan appeared to be - find a niche in the market and Dominate that niche. KTM set about building the best offroad bike in the world. They completely ignored the MX/SX world. At the start of the decade the Japanese 2-stroke competition was the KDX the RMX and the WR. Each of them used 1-3 year old designs in comparison to the MX version. They each were SECOND best in the companies lineup. KTM went after those number twos with their very best. By the end of the decade KTM had been so successful only the KDX remained and then only as a wildly less competitive low economy alternative.

I believe what helped lead to that level of popularity was the dirt magazines. like it or not the dirt bike buying public is hugely influenced by what those pinheads think A national desert title can't hold a candle to winning one of the major mag's shoutouts when it comes to sales.

Just try finding an offroad shootout in a magazine from the 90's that KTM didn't win. One of the things that seemed to appeal to the writers was the innovation. The KTM machines were in a constant state of improvement. Every single year the reviews sounded the same. "Last years shootout winner is completely redesigned! KTM certainly isn't resting on it's laurels!" Writers LOVE to talk about what's new. "Bold new graphics" is the surest way to get ignored and see sales plummet.

My advice to SWM is innovate or die. Also romance those dirt rag writers. Every bike shipped to a magazine for evaluation should have the airbox stuffed with cash, coke, and several phone numbers to prepaid hookers! Hah!

 

[Motosportz]

Also romance those dirt rag writers. Every bike shipped to a magazine for evaluation should have the airbox stuffed with cash, coke, and several phone numbers to prepaid hookers! Hah!

This is where KTM has ruled. And the CRF as well. Send mags gobs of money and buy your way in.

 

[Big Timmy]

Kelly,
I agree with you. We need the variety and choices. Not the big buck advertising and scarcity or rarity of product.

Not to throw the thread off course like I am known to do, a good sort of off subject but related instance is all the "Hodrod/Car" magazines right up to today. Back when I was actively drag racing. They would do a write up of an engine build and explain clearly why all the parts used were selected and how they all worked together. Then they would just say and a set of "Hooker Headers", were used. Not explaining why or anything. Mandrel bent tubing is Mandrel bent tubing. Nothing was special about them or no reason that they were the best brand to use.

The Hooker brand was used without explanation, why? Because they paid for half the magazines to stay alive. No explanation whatsoever and no doubt about it. There are plenty of better designed headers out there being made. Of even better raw materials and quality where these smaller companies had a little ad in the last few pages. No big double page ads. Even the smaller companies that were hand made like I have done for every Drag car chassis I have ever built. Were better than a boxed set of even "Hookers" best available headers.

There in lies the reason I can't understand to this day why a quality 4 stroke exhaust system costs what it does for a dirt bike. Even though I get the fact they have done the testing, proto typing and have the huge over head and build in huge volumes in large facilities. It still could be duplicated with just a few mandrel U-bends that are tig welded together with a flange on both ends and that's only some times. What difference does it make who's damn bike it came off of when it was first prototyped. That's meaningless unless its a trophy on a shelf from a one of a kind bike that only 1 ever exists. The company doesn't care either they just need a model of that bike around to make the first one then digitize it to build a cnc bending program. I've done plenty of mandrel bending on machines that cost well over a quarter million dollars back when I worked in the welding trades in CA, when I was younger. The exhaust companies are all over charging plain and simple.

"Akrapovic" 4-stroke full systems are a good example of high pricing of about 3 times what anybody else charges and they are no better than anybody else's pipes. I don't care what anybody says. Resonance chambers added or not. Not even those are consistent on their exhaust pipes and change constantly. In how they are attached diameters with regard to header pipe diameters lengths of the resonance chambers themselves etc. Titanium, S/S or not. Its still production made and will be superseded by a next years version to fit the same bike. There is no legitimate acceptable explanation or answer why people pay that kind of money unless they wipe with dollar bills.

In the 2 stroke market for instance look at Scalvini's pipes. Now that is true art, its way more reasonably priced. It's a small family owned business that won't accept anything but the best craftsmanship and isn't done on a high production floor like the bigger companies. Now that's a bargain and way more prestigious to have than a stamped out over priced 2 stroke expansion chamber that gets knocked out in less than an hour. Even the knocked out ones are much more complicated to make than 4 stroke exhausts and cost little or nothing compared to 4 stroke systems.

I think the Shineray/SWMs will do great if they can equip their bikes with good quality componentry. Italy surely have a good bunch of local craftsmen available to be working for them. Supply the parts support as needed and they will do great. I can't wait to see them come here.

I remember one of the Maico dealers I used to go over across the bay to see up to Sunnyvale/Santa Clara area in about 1978 and he was also a SWM racer and dealer. I always looked those bikes over pretty closely. I can't wait to see one in the near future.

Sorry for the derail, but it really is all about the money and I would say "Shineray" has a few piles of Chinese cash laying around. They will get here sooner than you think.

 

[Motosportz]

There in lies the reason I can't understand to this day why a quality 4 stroke exhaust system costs what it does for a dirt bike. Even though I get the fact they have done the testing, proto typing and have the huge over head and build in huge volumes in large facilities. It still could be duplicated with just a few mandrel U-bends that are tig welded together with a flange on both ends and that's only some times. What difference does it make who's damn bike it came off of when it was first prototyped. That's meaningless unless its a trophy on a shelf from a one of a kind bike that only 1 ever exists. The company doesn't care either they just need a model of that bike around to make the first one then digitize it to build a cnc bending program. I've done plenty of mandrel bending on machines that cost well over a quarter million dollars back when I worked in the welding trades in CA, when I was younger. The exhaust companies are all over charging plain and simple.

2 reasons...

1. People will pay that for it

2. The cost to build is way higher than you might think. I manufacture and see a lot of this. Ti is expensive, hard to weld right and work with. CF is also expansive. Brackets, springs, core, fiber materials, pip hangers, pipe guards... lots of parts there. And every year the bikes change so you need to make another one to fit. If you break down a modern high tech Ti/CF system, it is many parts and all are not cheap to make. If it was EZ and high profit you would see lots of others doing it. It is not. Add advertising and sponsoring on top of that and it is far from cheap to do. Then add the topper that this is a small market so no huge economy of scale like cars. IMHO.

 

[racemx904]

Plus there is so many models to cover.... R& D costs a lot of money....

KTM also always paid attention to the kids.... get them racing as kids and they are a lot more likely to get a 65 then 85 then 125

Having a killer product only goes so far.... been many a m/c company with a killer product that went belly up....

and in the 90s and early 2000s the mx dirt rags hated KTMs always found the dumbest reasons for it to finish last.... cant fit 8" numbers on side plate clutch lever bend is funny....

where the off road mags liked them, I still think KTM was big in the desert and that gave the opportunity for those off road editors to ride them since most were out of LA ( I know this because I rode with many of them until 2003)... where if they werent around those bikes they wouldnt have had a chance to ride them....

I think we can all agree that we hope SWM does good.... the problem is going to be getting butts in the seats before you give up.... if the bikes too cheap it will labeled like the "Made in China" stuff.....
Same with AJP, i would probably buy one, but where am I going to be able to look and one let alone ride one...

 

[Big Timmy]

I've not tried to start an argument Kelly. I've done well over 300 2 stroke pipes in my day one at a time. I know what is involved. They were all one offs except a run of production pipes for Quad Dynamics back in 1989. (outlaw pipes For flat trackers) for 500cc Suzuki Quadzillas. About 50 of them for Maico's alone both up and down and conversions from down to up, On old stuff.
built about 20 sets of drag race car headers and a few thumper exhausts systems from scrap when it was an engine transplant and have built dozens of Harley pipes and Turbo application headers for Imports as well. All were one offs.

I know what the materials cost and setting up a drag gas cup to weld titanium takes about an hour if you have never done it already and don't have it laying there in a box. It attaches in a few minutes and all one needs is an inline regulator if at all and a Victor Y fitting for your shielding gas hose and another length of tubing or light hose. It's nearly as Simple to weld as S/S if you know what you are doing. Like all Tig welding, preparation is the name of the game.

Just like your machine set ups-- preparation!

I have held a few certifications to weld things like the root mounts of Titanium tail rudders for aerospace missiles and other aircraft applications and it really ain't rocket science. In fact it's pretty easy all things considered. Back purging is common in the welding and pressure vessel fields so why is it so expensive? They don't have any associated costs of radiographs and x-ray quality weld requirements for motorcycles exhausts I can assure you. Like they do in the aerospace or pressure vessels type work. That's what costs money because they mostly have to bring these people in house from the outside specialty sector of the welding trade.

So for your answer to why Titanium welding cost so much? It's not so much the materials. Which I know aren't cheap. Exactly, not enough people know how to do it and welding schools hardly teach it either because they don't have the funding and can't get the raw scrap to teach the craft. Last time I checked out a box of raw scraps of chromoly tubing from my shop and later again from the Border Patrol through Govt. lateral transfer to the local college to there Aviation dept. and then their agricultural welding program they were happy as hell to get it.

No money for Titanium is going to be available at a basic welding school unless you pay out the yazoo for a specific class from the likes of Lincoln or Miller whom both send me the welding news letters through work. I teach welding myself to the Govt. mechanics and fence crews.

Many of my own Depts. welders employed in welding positions at other BP stations through out the US at the Northern and Southern borders don't even know how to tig weld at all. They don't even know how to run a suitcase innershield wire feeder off their trucks engine driven stick welders when all the machines have the capabilities to run a feeder off the welders. They can barely stick weld.

The Craftsmen are what costs and as a manufacturer yourself you probably don't have a flood of applications coming in the door everyday for machinists either.

 

[Motosportz]

I've not tried to start an argument Kelly.

Me either. I was simply responding. People always act like parts cost to much. After you buy the raw materials, cut them up into workable chunks, design a program, build many fixtures, buy some tooling, pay someone to machine them, hope there are no issues, send it out for plating, assemble it, make instructions, make boxes, package it, advertise it, process the orders, have a all your biz overhead paid, and send it then you get a small profit at the end. If I thought there were huge margins in exhaust I would be building some. I actually looked into it and no thanks. You would be surprised how much a tool for stamping out endcaps is. Exotic materials in tapered sections and such are crazy expensive. Then, like you say you need competent people to build it all. All that needs recouped. Oh and dont forget to leave distributor (30%) and dealer margins (30%) or your amount of distribution will be severely limited. Then you can get to paying thousands for a one time 1/4 ad in a mag... then start all over next year when they change the motor, or frame, or subframe.

Take your experience and build pipes and sell them for less. If you can undercut FMF by 30% you could be the next big thing.

 

[Boogie]

So will it be 2016 or 2017 when SWM compete in euro motocross?

 

[Big Timmy]

Kelly,
You are right with all the packaging, shipping, advertising, boxes, process orders etc. pay for or train unskilled labor, worry about outside vendors actions or issues. You are right I get it. I have never done "Production work" to the point where I had to worry about all that stuff. it has always been custom work for me for 40+ years. All the pipes I did would be a one off and out the door and that's the way it went all the way back to 1975. I haven't done one for a 2 stroke for awhile. I quit doing this kind of work except for the occasional Harley along time ago. I don't want to try to undercut Emler or be the "next big thing".

There's no profit left for the little guy.

There will always be work though for the guy who can do the work from scratch, on the bike and build the fixture if needed from their first prototype of a specific application of a limited or an engine transplant in a custom application.

If you know how to manually map out the ports of the cylinder of a 2 stroke and do it correctly from scratch (I now use 2 stroke wizard software), Its faster. In the years before I had to read many books on the subject. But first you have to be an excellent sheetmetal worker/fabricator and a layout man, to know how to do projection layout. Also a lost art and no longer needed with computer software.

I know people who are so called sheetmetal workers and do duct work all day long and couldn't turn out a frustum cone or manually bend a Pittsburgh seam if there life depended on it and have been feeding the sheets through the machine that does it for them for years. They wouldn't have a clue even where to start or which part of it has to be bent first even though they can draw it from an end view. Its sad really.

Building a pair of equal length stepped race car headers. Or to be able to build a 4 stroke prototype header and mid pipe with a reverse cone megaphone before entry, all the way back to making the muffler or silencer with all the hangers and brackets. Its a lost art. The labor force is scarce and getting far to far smaller as time goes on. I never wanted to do more than one of anything.

There's barely anywhere left that does this and some that say they do and have websites don't have the years of experience or skills. The pictures of their examples of work on their websites show that.

Unless its for me or a close friend who is willing to do it right next to me, every hour and help go through all the steps to learn what really is involved, you can't pay me enough to do it anymore. I have to do a new pipe for my old 1977 Adolph Wiehl replica Maico restoration soon so it's not something that I have forgotten and will do it without the software. Silencer too.

This forum is an outlet for me as you know.

I have no kids to pass this on to and my Dad who lives here and taught me to work with my hands and how to build saddles at a young age and was a shop teacher for 36 years has never even put a welding helmet on his head and watched me weld, ever. His wood shop is directly across the street from mine. He is 80 now. My brother and Nieces and Nephew who are in Florida which are my only other family don't have any interest.

It will die within me. Wish I could pass it on. Don't see that happening though.

 

[Motosportz]

Master fabricators are a dieing breed and an amazing part of our history. Custom stuff is second to none. I get it.

 

[Kam1]

I feel the same way, especially on passing it on- my son has no interest in what I do( I fix cars) my daughter might but is way smart. (did not get it from me) So here comes this early 20 something kid, good attitude, shows up on time, and now I feel more pressure to make sure he is ok then me. There is that one guy or gal that wants to learn still! Do not give up, they will come to you- then you get the stress of teaching them your trade, and feeding them. The kid doesn't know it yet, nore will I tell him- but if he keeps it up He could be stuck with a shop, then again he may quit, I buy an old VW bus and a set of Bongo drums, and go on a world tour.Either way he learned some, and I might get bongos! So lets be safe America and start building some things, and enforceing patent laws. (yes many typos but you might get point)

 

[water racer]

Plus there is so many models to cover.... R& D costs a lot of money....

KTM also always paid attention to the kids.... get them racing as kids and they are a lot more likely to get a 65 then 85 then 125

Having a killer product only goes so far.... been many a m/c company with a killer product that went belly up....

and in the 90s and early 2000s the mx dirt rags hated KTMs always found the dumbest reasons for it to finish last.... cant fit 8" numbers on side plate clutch lever bend is funny....

where the off road mags liked them, I still think KTM was big in the desert and that gave the opportunity for those off road editors to ride them since most were out of LA ( I know this because I rode with many of them until 2003)... where if they werent around those bikes they wouldnt have had a chance to ride them....

I think we can all agree that we hope SWM does good.... the problem is going to be getting butts in the seats before you give up.... if the bikes too cheap it will labeled like the "Made in China" stuff.....
Same with AJP, i would probably buy one, but where am I going to be able to look and one let alone ride one...

Come to Knoxville, you can look and try AJP's at Knox Enduro... and Beta's, and maybe in the future SWM.

 

[Big Timmy]

Kam1,
Your right there are always ones that want to learn but right now they are all already BP agents. When they interview for new guys on the fence crew I'm no longer part of that process. I used to be but my Dept. transferred all the Facilities Maintenance, Equipment Operators and Welding personnel to "BP Facilities" and "Tactical Infrastructure", I don't work with the Agents anymore directly because as a civilian we have our own civilian command staff. Which we should have had all along.

No more getting bossed around by Greenshirts who don't know shit about my trade. Its a good thing really. I supervise myself. The Fence Crew agents don't even ask me for guidance, which they are supposed to do within the contract. I just inspect there work on the fence when they do minor half assed repairs, turn most of it down and we have Contract Repair Personnel in place to come out and do the big drive through breaches repairs correctly to the design standards. This money is already there in the up front quote to build the border fence through the Army Corps of Engineers and it lasts for 30 years. The intended life span of much of the biggest, best fence in the populated areas of the fence. So this contract work costs the BPs nothing really. But they still have a group of 5 or 6 agents assigned to fence crew at $100,000 a year who do nothing working 50 hour weeks. That's undue deployment fees to me. They have no business trying or doing what real trades people do.

I have gone into Contract Representative, Inspection, Program Contract Management, DOD Acquisition and Procurement.

As for the Aimless Agents on fence crew its gone from being Rooky agents first gig outside of regular duties from a line agent to senior Agents applying for fence crew until they retire or transfer to another position or station. Because they don't want to do nothing but play around in the shop, make stupid address, name signs, and toys, trophys, and work on their own projects. I have left my office even next to the TI Weld Shop at the Old Station / Satellite facility and took up an office at the main station in the corridor at the Main Stations Garage. I answer to nobody there and only speak to my direct supervisor by email or occasionally on the phone.

They may get detailed to the Fence Crew and some have had interests but the detail only allows them to stay a year max and then on to something else. They have to wait a full year or more at some other detail to be able to come back over to the Fence Crew. So I hardly teach anymore there unless its to the auto mechanics and I don't have to do that. They don't teach me electronics fault code readings from under the hood.

It's funny, One of my best prodigies I've had there was an Agent from Columbia. He served in our Navy in electronics. I could hardly understand anything he said but he could read my mind and know my next move because of his added attention. He only had his wife here to talk to and hardly knew what the hell I was saying either I guess. The other agents used to get pissed off because I would always pick this guy to go out and help me work along side as a helper you know. They wanted to do the same or wanted equal opportunity anyways. But they spend most of the day on there phones and that was the game changer for me.

Sorry for my ramblings.

As I said it will die with me. I'm OK with that.

I'm going mud riding right now and getting geared up, we got some good rain yesterday, it was epic. Then it rained some more last evening when I washed my bike off. I'm out. Safe riding everybody.

 

[Kam1]

I am going dust riding, man we need the rain- now back to SWM- maybe if they get popular enough I can get a less restrictive spark arrestor for my husky, or an improved design cooling system.

 

[edmoto]

Currently it is cheap on Sunday, sell on Monday. :P

Actually, isn't it "cheap everyday, store open on Sunday's, gimme 5 year warranty, $100 fuel card, 3 free oil changes, heavy discount coupons, and a free T-shirt"?

I hope SWM commits to a date for US imports soon. Even if it isn't til next year... just something to work off of. That way I can do my planning for a possible purchase. AJP's PR7 looks tempting, and I think the Japanese are starting to get on the whole dirt/adventure bandwagon again. It's one thing for SWM to complete with 1 or 2 brands for a market segment. Another thing versus 4 or 5 brands.

 

[Auto5guy]

KTM also always paid attention to the kids.... get them racing as kids and they are a lot more likely to get a 65 then 85 then 125

That can't be overstated either. Very smart long term thinking. Give a kid his first taste or even first dream of glory and he'll likely have an affinity for your brand the rest of his life. And again it's an example of the then small KTM looking to dominate a vulnerable niche in the market. Much easier to dominate a market competing against Italajet and Polini than the big four.

 

[Erik Italhusky]

Prices in the Benelux. (Belgium and the Netherlands. The Netherlands is more expensive because of an extra tax):

Silver Vase - B: 5.390 € / NL: € 5.990
Gran Milano - B: 5.990 € / NL: € 6.690
SM 650R - B: 6.790 € / NL: € 7.690
RS 650R - B: 6.790 € / NL: € 7.690
SM 500R - B: 6.590 € / NL: € 7.490
RS 300R - B: 6.290 € / NL: € 6.990
RS 500R - B: 6.490 € / NL: € 7.290

 

[Boogie]

Hi Erik,

What is a Husky FE501 worth in Belgium?

(Just for comparison to give me an idea of cost in Australia)