• Hi everyone,

    As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.

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Terra lost power, turned off will not restart - Help!

Thanks Mark, yes I will check out those items. At the moment I have left it to one side in the shed while I mull over it, have a general sulk and deal with other more important problems. Then I will start pulling things down until I can find the root cause.
Cheers
 
Rotax Engineers have indicated there are three fault conditions which can cause a build up of oil in the air box.

1/ Oil over fill, which is a common problem with new owners of bikes with dry sump systems.
2/ Counter balance shaft seal failure, leaking oil from the crank case into the RHS housing with the vent tube.
3/ Compression leak issue, causing a pressure build up in the crank case. eg A broken land between piston rings.
 
Checked the oil breather hose tonight yes this is definitely the source.
Next will drop the oil again to be 100% certain it's not overfilled. While I'll be pretty annoyed with myself, I actually hope it is overfilled - at least it's an easy fix.
My 2 issues must be related. If the oil in the air box affected my air sensor, should this show as an engine management error on the dashboard? If not, how do I check for correct function?
 
I would suspect that when the Pod mod was done the crankcase breather got blocked. At higher RPM crankcase pressure built up enough to cause the poor performance. The breather line filled with oil and the pressure bypassed the blockage causing the oil in the air box. This also explains your oil level issues. If this is the case you will find the cylinder will be fouled with oil that was pushed past the rings. I have seen this in many vehicles when factory air cleaners are replaced and the extra hose are blocked. The pressure builds up so much in the crankcase under high revs it pushes out the crank case seal gaskets. Solution, Clear and blow back the breather line. Use a gas spray in the intake to wash out the cylinder. Then replace the spark plugs. PS don't crank the engine without the spark plugs connected as it can damage the coils. If there is no other damage from the crank case pressure you should be good to go.
 
Wayne, Riverboy, thank you very much for your advice - more to think about.
- I'll drop the oil first to get positive confirmation whether I did or didn't overfill. As I have stated, I'm used to dealing with dry sump motors, but I can be a klutz....
- the motors only done 3000km, and no funny noises, so I think not rings
- countershaft seal -yikes!, how do I diagnose?
- blocked crankcase breather - yikes! Will check this out too and pull the plugs to see if they are oiled
Thanks again
 
Very interesting Terrastorm - thanks for that. Had a look at the hose, it looks ok, but I'll pull it off and check the ID when I dump the oil on the weekend

Will report back with progress Sunday
 
If you did block the breather tube and the pressure built up this may of caused the seal failure. (Counter balance shaft seal failure, leaking oil from the crank case into the RHS housing with the vent tube). Time to remove the engine. This would also explain all your oil level problems now. The tank oil is leaking down through the bad seal push oil up the tube till the cows comes home. It still is not too bad as it sounds like all the pieces are still in one piece. Hope this helps take a look at the service manual on motor teardown and you will help you determine what seals to order.
 
Yes, I will do something with it. I wonder about the fire risk of letting oil discharge on the motor though?
 
You will notice there is another tube in the airbox facing down and blocked off, on the earlier BM's that one is longer with a removable plug it is to drain off any excess oil. Was looking at it on a Terra a few weeks ago and we concluded the BMW GS longer tube with an air bed bung would be a much better arrangement
 
riverboy said:
If you did block the breather tube and the pressure built up this may of caused the seal failure. (Counter balance shaft seal failure, leaking oil from the crank case into the RHS housing with the vent tube). Time to remove the engine. This would also explain all your oil level problems now. The tank oil is leaking down through the bad seal push oil up the tube till the cows comes home. It still is not too bad as it sounds like all the pieces are still in one piece. Hope this helps take a look at the service manual on motor teardown and you will help you determine what seals to order.
Click to expand...
Shit! So that means splitting the cases?
 
I am still convinced that this may be a simple case of overfilling of oil and that the crankcase breather tube was never blocked.
I fail to understand how the tube got blocked when performing a Pod Mod, all operations take place on the opposite side and there is no need to touch that pipe at all. Furthermore the engine breathes mainly through the other pipe from the top of the cylinder head back to the oil tank, the small tube on the right side should contain no oil at all, unless something is seriously wrong, or the oil tank is overfilled.
Hopefully the OP may find that dropping the oil level and cleaning everything out, including the spark plugs could sort the problem.

I still have no need to perform a Pod Mod on my Strada and probably never will.
 
I can't understand how you can overfill the Terra. If you have the measured out amount, or even close, and try to dump it in the frame, you end up with a big oil puddle. You would really have to work at it to overfill the bike.
 
Ok, I've made a start, my feedback follows, complete with demonstration of my mechanical ignorance
Plugs:
image.jpeg
I think they're OK? I haven't tested for spark by grounding on the outside of the motor, will that do any damage on this sort of bike? If it is spark, being twin plugs, the problem must be further "up stream" - can I test somewhere with multimeter?

Dropped the oil - no, I wasn't imagining it, 2l:
image.jpeg

Put 2l of fresh oil back in. That took a while as I couldn't run the motor before putting the last 400ml in.
Doesn't seem to be spitting oil out anymore. I'm also wondering about the other oil hoses, could a blockage in one of them cause an issue:
image.jpeg

I was suspicious about the air sensor. I still am - I reckon when I went up the steep hill, oil was able to affect it. I pulled it out, oil had got into the plug, but I don't think the actual sensor. Cleaned it up and put it back with the first glimmer of hope I might have fixed the problem. Nope....
How do I test the air sensor function? Is there a resistance value I should check?

Another crazy idea I had was that maybe some crud or oil had blocked up the cats, stopping the exhaust flow. Thought about pulling it off, but I can still feel pressure out the end when I wind it over.

If it's none of the above, I think I'm back to the injector. Is it ok to simply remove it and get it tested?
 
If you understand how a dry sump works, this motor and every other Harley, seal failure is the most common problem for the case overfilling to the breather. Raising the hose above the oil tank will do nothing, the hydraulic pressure will still push the oil up to same level as the reserve tank. I wish I was closer to you to help you properly diagnose you problem, but from what you are telling me you need to check and replace the seals. Be glad you did not hydraulic the motor and break couple valves, wreck the piston and bend the connecting rod while scoring the cylinder. Splitting the case is not a big deal but if you are not confident or do not have the tools to do this find a mate that is willing to help you or bring it to a motorcycle shop.
 
riverboy said:
If you understand how a dry sump works, this motor and every other Harley, seal failure is the most common problem for the case overfilling to the breather. Raising the hose above the oil tank will do nothing, the hydraulic pressure will still push the oil up to same level as the reserve tank. I wish I was closer to you to help you properly diagnose you problem, but from what you are telling me you need to check and replace the seals. Be glad you did not hydraulic the motor and break couple valves, wreck the piston and bend the connecting rod while scoring the cylinder. Splitting the case is not a big deal but if you are not confident or do not have the tools to do this find a mate that is willing to help you or bring it to a motorcycle shop.
Click to expand...


Plugs show zero sign of excess oil in the cylinder - therefore IMHO the above damage probability is very low if not impossible.
The amount of oil recovered (2ltrs) shows it was not overfilled by much so this is not going to happen.

The engine runs and does not smoke excessively - therefore this is not going to happen.
 
Muddler said:
Ok, I've made a start, my feedback follows, complete with demonstration of my mechanical ignorance
Plugs:
View attachment 62821
I think they're OK? I haven't tested for spark by grounding on the outside of the motor, will that do any damage on this sort of bike? If it is spark, being twin plugs, the problem must be further "up stream" - can I test somewhere with multimeter?

Dropped the oil - no, I wasn't imagining it, 2l:
View attachment 62822

Put 2l of fresh oil back in. That took a while as I couldn't run the motor before putting the last 400ml in.
Doesn't seem to be spitting oil out anymore. I'm also wondering about the other oil hoses, could a blockage in one of them cause an issue:
View attachment 62823

I was suspicious about the air sensor. I still am - I reckon when I went up the steep hill, oil was able to affect it. I pulled it out, oil had got into the plug, but I don't think the actual sensor. Cleaned it up and put it back with the first glimmer of hope I might have fixed the problem. Nope....
How do I test the air sensor function? Is there a resistance value I should check?

Another crazy idea I had was that maybe some crud or oil had blocked up the cats, stopping the exhaust flow. Thought about pulling it off, but I can still feel pressure out the end when I wind it over.

If it's none of the above, I think I'm back to the injector. Is it ok to simply remove it and get it tested?
Click to expand...

Your air sensor will be fine, oil will not affect it. So long as your Dash Temp reading is normal, then the sensor is working correctly. Test complete.

The Fuel Injector has nothing to do with the oil in the airbox - there is no connection. The loss of power you experienced is concurrent with a fuel supply problem, I still suspect the pump filter or crap in the tank.

Can you pop the small breather hose off the right hand side casing and then turn over or run the engine to see what happens - does any oil come out?

From your picture, the hose No.1 is the Main Breather for the engine crankcase and cylinder head, it appears to me that it could be incorrectly routed. If this hose was blocked then the pressure build up within the engine will force oil up the small breather into the airbox. Is it possible that you blocked the hose No 1 when performing the Pod Mod - was the airbox removed and replaced pinching the hose?

My hope is that if you did block that hose then maybe it was only partially blocked and the oil pressure build up was not enough to blow the crankcase seals, and the pressure was relieved into the airbox - hence the oil.

Next is to clean the oil out if you already haven't done so, check the Hose No 1 is not pinched and that no more oil is pumping out the small breather.
Then go for a run on the bike, check for smoke out of the exhausts and loss of oil from anywhere else on the bike.

I have two theories on this - One is that you have two faults - One being the Fuel flow issue which is yet to be proven.
The Oil pressurisation and flow into the airbox is highly likely to have been the blocking of Hose No 1 when the Pod Mod was done, but I wonder if it is possible that the engine went into "limp mode" at this time which gives you the indication of a loss of power and limitation to 3000 rpm.

Hopefully you have sorted the oil pressure problem by clearing Hose No 1, your engine did not blow any seals and you are good to go.
 
Riverboy, Mark
Thank you very much for your advice, I really appreciate the leads to follow.
I feel that if I split the cases myself there's a reasonable chance I'll stuff it up. If it was an older motor I'd have a crack, but it's only done 3000km, so I would send it to a shop; in which case the labour will get VERY expensive. I REALLY, REALLY hope it doesn't come to that.
I did pop off the RHS hose from the airbox prior to dropping the oil and it was spitting a bit of oil. Post oil change, it is not. My concern is could this point to a leaking seal and once enough oil has moved through it will start pushing up the tube again?
I did not remove the airbox when doing the pod mod, so I doubt I affected hose 1 - will check anyway.

Limp mode is interesting, I hope you're right. Surely this would show on the dash?. I did disconnect the battery hoping that would reset things.
Is there anything else I need to do to reset?
 
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