TR650 overheating

[glitch_oz]

Soooo my best guess is that I have a small head and or gasket issue. Any thoughts on this from you lot?

I'm taking it to the dealer next Friday.

Awwww, SHIT. Don't tell me we've got another head-gasket issue with that bloody donk. This was a never-ending issue with the old F650/ Aprilia Pegaso / Rotax based 650's around the late 90s/ early 2000s....Aprilia ended up listing 4 different head gaskets for the Peg, arghh .
Waterpump impeller wheel/shaft and gaskets next? (howwwwlll)

 

[broadwayron]

There are a few conflicting things in this thread... did anyone confirm that the stock radiator cap is bad, or was that just a few isolated cases?
I need to burp mine again, but I don't really know how to tell if the cap needs to be replaced.

 

[AUS_TR650]

...but I don't really know how to tell if the cap needs to be replaced.

An aftermarket cap is cheap. Just replace it anyhow to eliminate it from the troubleshooting process. It worked for most of us especially during recovery when the engine cooled down.

 

[broadwayron]

An aftermarket cap is cheap. Just replace it anyhow to eliminate it from the troubleshooting process. It worked for most of us especially during recovery when the engine cooled down.

That sounds reasonable... I'll add it to my next online order from RMATV, or wherever.

 

[broadwayron]

I put on that aftermarket cap from Advanced Auto... it's just as hard to put on as the stock cap on my bike (I need to hit it with a screwdriver). However, I rode in bumper-to-bumper traffic today (temp was in the 80's) and my bike didn't overheat. Fan kicked on every now and then, like it should. I guess I'm good now (hope I don't jinx myself).

 

[Baddrapp]

After changing my coolant I suggest everyone to change the factory coolant. When I flushed mine out with the hose it looked like brown mud flowing out of the water pump. I bought Zip Ty's waterless coolant.

Dang, it looks like when its time to check the valves clearance I will also change the head gasket. Does anyone know if there is another head gasket available?

 

[Hansi]

Out of no where, Yesterday afternoon I received a shower of coolant straight from the nipple of the reservior tank. Winter here and was less than 16 degrees celsius. First thing I remember saying WTF? then looked straight at the Temp gauge =Normal, slowed down noticed the temp gauge then rising. pulled up then another bar hotter on the gauge then the thermo fan cut in and it started cooling down immediately. So just gently rode home that wasn't far, no issues.

Home and cap off-
Seem to have an amount of scale or something floating around in the radiator.
A sludge greasy/waxy type of build up on bottom the of radiator cap.
Then topped it all up with distilled water while running to remove any possible airlocks. However it seems to keep making bubbles with the cap off. BTW- I changed the cap 6months ago to a matched tridon 17-120. Engine oil looks fine.

I then read this entire thread last night and slept on it, "somethings not right"
First thing this morning had another look and wanted to smell the radiator cap, well I'm not really into sniffing things but pretty sure both cooling system caps smell more like exhaust gas than coolant.
Also I have just spoke with Nulon here in Oz about their blue longlife coolant (i have used this in my terra) and queried the technical department about their product. Their view is it's not likely to them that this has caused any of the issues, and claim they will happily discuss this matter further if needed.

Soooo my best guess is that I have a small head and or gasket issue. Any thoughts on this from you lot?

I'm taking it to the dealer next Friday.

Had the same exact thing happen to me on my Triumph Tiger 955i. Started to spit coolant in my face with higher than normal engine temps on a trip out to Salt Lake City, thought it was the rad-cap and exchanged it with a higher pressure one, that of cause did not fix the problem. I was naive enough to keep on driving, two up and loaded for camping until the head gasket completely let go in Salt Lake City with great sound effects, lots of steam, water in the jugs, etc.
Smart choice taking it to the dealer right away, hope you are not riding your bike anymore and trailering it to the dealer? He can do a compression test to see whats going on.
Good luck !

 

[ghbgator]

The shop said all they did was top off the radiator......??? This is the same shop that didn't know you had to drain oil from the oil tank and the sump.

 

[Link]

So let me get this correct: Squeeze my hose until the bubbles run down my leg er, radiator?

 

[PaulC]

The shop said all they did was top off the radiator......??? This is the same shop that didn't know you had to drain oil from the oil tank and the sump.


hehehe, some of the shit they try n spin.. you can only laugh! Dropped the car in for a service last week, when it was done the wife offered to pick it up so we went to the shop on the TR. As she paying the mechanic said "I have to charge a bit extra because it took a lot of oil"......?? WELL HELLO He drives the same model flipping car!
Sorry I digress

 

[M1A2TechPI]

Hello Everyone, Very interesting subject and also a Problematic Issue. New Terra Owner as of Dec 6th with a Demo unit having 371 K's on the clock and live about 2 hours south of the dealer in Manila. Just had one ride so far-Dealer to my home and the dashboard/ LCD was not set-up until I got home. 1st off, I will flush the factory coolant and put in Engine Ice as I have a 1/2 Gallon left over from my 2003 SV1000N. And it can be purchased locally from Access Plus (KTM/ Ducati Dealer) on P.Tuazon St. in Q.C. Manila. Once I burp it, will then check flow and temps if OK will still get a Spare Rad Cap 1.1-1.2 Bar depending on what I find here in the Philippines. Additionally, the rear of the stock fender (IMHO) blocks air flow to the center of the Rad or across the Rad when hitting the curves. I will install a Acerbis SM Fender that already has air flow holes at the rear and when the Rad gets dirty or partially blocked - I clean from the inside. PLUS, like my 1998 KLR there is a large gap between the side panels and the Rad. I plan on fabricating two HD Plastic Air Scoops on the L & R sides of the Rad to catch more air and direct it across the surface.
ghbator-hope to meet you in the future and Jodie - lets RIDE. Regards to All, Chris

 

[danketchpel]

Hello Everyone, Very interesting subject and also a Problematic Issue. New Terra Owner as of Dec 6th with a Demo unit having 371 K's on the clock and live about 2 hours south of the dealer in Manila. Just had one ride so far-Dealer to my home and the dashboard/ LCD was not set-up until I got home. 1st off, I will flush the factory coolant and put in Engine Ice as I have a 1/2 Gallon left over from my 2003 SV1000N. And it can be purchased locally from Access Plus (KTM/ Ducati Dealer) on P.Tuazon St. in Q.C. Manila. Once I burp it, will then check flow and temps if OK will still get a Spare Rad Cap 1.1-1.2 Bar depending on what I find here in the Philippines. Additionally, the rear of the stock fender (IMHO) blocks air flow to the center of the Rad or across the Rad when hitting the curves. I will install a Acerbis SM Fender that already has air flow holes at the rear and when the Rad gets dirty or partially blocked - I clean from the inside. PLUS, like my 1998 KLR there is a large gap between the side panels and the Rad. I plan on fabricating two HD Plastic Air Scoops on the L & R sides of the Rad to catch more air and direct it across the surface.
ghbator-hope to meet you in the future and Jodie - lets RIDE. Regards to All, Chris

Mabuhay!

I posted up my cooling system mods in another thread but I'll repost here as it makes good sense.

I used the Zip-Ty Racing XF2 waterless coolant, but I "suspect" the Engine Ice might work the same. When you drain out the fluid (the lowest screw on the water pump is the drain), after you have most out disconnect the lower radiator hose on the right side of the radiator and lean the bike over to the right as far as possible, about another pint (~1/2 Liter) of coolant will come out of the radiator.



When you refill do it slowly and burp the hoses. Then start the engine with the radiator cap off and allow it to come up to temperature. As the thermostat opens you will see a change in the fluid level, keep topping it off and after the fan has kicked on at least once and the fluid level no longer changes put the cap on. You can do this all while it's running. I added more carefully which allows some fluid to drain into the overflow reservoir.

This step of getting as much of the air out as possible is pretty critical as there are no bleed points on this engine and it appears most of the dealers don't do a very good job of it when they set the bikes up.



I drilled an array of 3/4" (~12mm) holes in the rear portion of the stock fender using a step drill. I laid out the pattern using a sharpy felt tip pen on blue masking tape on the inside of the fender off the bike. If you will be riding in real muddy conditions you can use some Gorilla tape/Duct tape on the inside of the fender to cover the holes.





Next I added a 2nd cooling fan on the right side wired in parallel to the stock fan. I bumped the #5 fuse up from 10 to 15amp to cover the extra load. I tapped into the wires for the stock fan near the connector above the stock fan.

I used a 4" fan made by Spal (same company makes the stock fan). It is used as the stock fan on KTM 500 EXC model. You have to remove the evap canister but I suspect you don't have one anyway on your bike since it's not a California model, lucky guy.

Just as a heads up, Tinken at Zip-Ty racing is working on a thermostat removal block that goes in the radiator. For your hot climate this might be something to consider if you still see the coolant temps running very high.

For my climate these mods were enough, and some here have not needed the extra fan.

I fully understand your riding conditions as I've ridden in the Philippines a few times in the Visayas, it can make a bike run real hot, especially if you get stuck in some nasty traffic.

 

[Tinken]

Just fyi, XF2 and Engine Ice are completely different. EngineIce is 100% propylene glycol, same as EVANS NPG and are very viscous. This has caused problems in the past in powersports and is why Evans and Zipty created EVANS powersport coolant. XF2 has a very low viscosity, similar to a water mix, bur without the water. This allows it to flow faster, evacuating nearly twice as much heat as Propylene based coolant.

Also, the radiator blocks are almost finished. They have been machined and are being assymled now.

 

[Mark_H]

I have not yet experienced any overheating issues despite running the bike very hot in Cebu Philippines with ambient air temps around 30c and having observed when stuck in traffic that the air temp sensor (no spoofer fitted) normally reads anything up to 44c and has been as high as 48c, also I can feel the bike is running extremely hot as the air from the fan burns my left leg through my trousers.
My Temp gauge normally reads between 1/2 and 2/3 and if it goes up one more notch the fan kicks in and it usually drops back to normal unless I am stationary or moving slowly in traffic then the fan stays on but the gauge doesn't go up any further - so all appears to be well.
One point is that if I run the bike stationary the fan kicks in and it wont stop, eventually the bike does get hot enough for the temp gauge to go to max and the warning light come on, but it takes around 15 minutes or more to do this.

One thing I have noticed is that my Expansion Tank appears to be about 1/3rd full when the bike is hot and running, but when the bike is cold the tank is empty. This indicates to me that things are pretty good, ie the coolant in the system is expanding into the tank and then returning back down through the radiator cap when it can do.

I still think the bike could run even cooler and so I performed the Cannisterectomy to increase air flow through the radiator.
Note: I just removed the cannister and its bracket and hoses, but I left the Purge Valve in place and wired up. I cannot see any reason to remove it as it is not in the way. Only if I was going to eliminate all hoses and could easily plug the throttle body connection, but access isn't so simple.

Re The Fuel Tank Vent Hose - I pulled mine out then dropped it in behind the throttle body, on the right side away from the actuator and then down behind the wires and the front sprocket cover. The original hose is just long enough to fit behind the cover so there is no danger of gasoline spillage over any other components in that area.

I took note of Danketchpels post about fitting a second fan and plan to do so as soon as I can source a suitable one locally, probably from a smaller water cooled bike or scooter.

Whilst the plastics were off and the dreaded radiator cap was more easily accessible I took the opportunity to check the water system and generally see what is going on.
I found the following -

Cold Bike leaning on side stand - Expansion Tank almost Empty and Radiator appears to be about 2/3rds full. Putting the bike upright and then over to the right causes the Expansion Tank to empty completely.

With bike in same position leaning on side stand with Expansion Tank Empty - Running the engine stationary with the Radiator Cap off, starting from cold caused almost immediate overflow of about 200cc of coolant from the open radiator, which I caught in a strategically placed jug.

Watching as the bike heated up it appeared that the Thermostat opening was simultaneous with the spillage stopping, pretty much as I would expect.
Soon afterwards the temp gauge rose quickly and the fan cut in, almost the same time very hot water was bubbling and spitting out of the open radiator cap. I let it run with lots of air and very hot bubbles spitting out with about 100cc more coolant lost to the jug.
When the air stopped coming out I could see the coolant coming out of the hose and obviously running through the radiator, also the fan stayed on but the engine didn't start to overheat as quickly as I would have expected it to with no radiator cap.

With the coolant flow more settled I started to pour the collected liquid back into the radiator and it took back about half, say about 150cc.
As soon as I stopped the engine the coolant level in the radiator dropped dramatically and I poured the other 150cc of 'saved' coolant back in, but the level was still low so I added about 200cc more coolant (fresh water) until the radiator was completely full with the engine stopped, but still hot.
Then I replaced the radiator cap and let the bike cool down for about 30 minutes.

Finally with the bike still in exactly the same position I ran the engine and watched carefully.
The temp gauge rose and the fan cut in as normal, however after about a minute the gauge dropped and the fan went off. This has never happened before when running the bike on its side stand. I let it run and cycle the fan on and off three times and also observed the Expansion Tank, the level rose but only a very small amount and nothing much happened.
I let the bike cool down and the Expansion Tank level once again dropped to empty.

Reading the instructions in the Workshop manual I understand that my present Coolant level may be lower than recommended, however it would appear that I may have got something right.

My Cooling System, ie Radiator and associated hoses, water pump and engine galleys etc appears to be full of coolant whether the engine is hot or cold.
I am not running any fancy coolants other than the manufacturers original 'pink' stuff, now diluted with a bit of fresh water.

My Expansion Tank and original Radiator Cap appear to be doing as they should, ie allowing pressure to build and coolant to expand into the tank when the engine is hot and also allowing it to recover back to the radiator as the engine cools.

My fan is cutting in and doing its job properly now as when it runs, the water temperature drops and the fans cycles on and off.

This is all as I think it should be, ie Coolant system full of coolant and circulating, fan cooling but not running continuously and expansion system holding and recovering.
However, according to the Manual, my levels are not correct - so I may add a small amount of water to the expansion tank when the engine is as hot as I can get it, but I don't want it to ever get so full as to overflow or spray me in the face.

Question is: Have I got it right, or am I just lucky my original Radiator, Thermostat, Fan, Radiator cap and coolant appear to be all ok. Maybe only time and a good long run in a lot of traffic will tell, but I hope so. Maybe I won't need the second fan after all

Cheers, MH

 

[Geeza]

This may be a bit of topic - I run the scheffelmeier oil cooler and the bike never runs hot, even last week with the 40c days the airbox temp was in the high 40's - low 50's. The temp gauge sits on half, in heavy traffic creeps up a bar or two and when the fan comes on it brings the temp straight down again. The cooling system is running the dealer coolant but I have changed the radiator cap.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/scheffelmeier-metall.40738/#post-402376

 

[engineerk9]

I've already seen it. That's why I asked. Maybe I can get my wife to do it.

The small hands or the foul language ??

 

[nycrider]

Did I do something wrong burping my bike?

I did the whole process with the bike upright on a stand.
Trying to keep the spillage of coolant down (this proved to be a wasted effort)
I emptied the overflow tank before opening the radiator cap.

When I opened the radiator I was surprised to find how low the level was given that the overflow tank was at max full.
I filled the radiator up so I could see the coolant near the neck.
I started the bike.
As the temp came up it began overflowing coolant out the top.
Then about the time the fan kicked on, it dropped significantly.
I assume this was the thermostat opening.
I filled the radiator again so I could see the coolant near the neck.
This time it was obvious that the coolant was moving and some bubbles were working their way out.
Then it began overflowing again, quite a bit too.
I shut it off and it puked out even more coolant.

Did I run it too long after the thermostat opened trying to get the bubbles out?
I don’t think I ran it more than 2-3 mins after the fan kicked on/thermostat opened.
Should I have just shut the bike off after the thermostat opened and not tried to get the bubble out while running?
Was I not supposed to fill the radiator during this process?

Haha same thing happened to me. Stood the bike upright with res and rad caps open, res coolant drained, I set it on the kickstand. I started the bike and let it run for about 5 minutes. During those 5 minutes, a lot of air bubbles started coming out of the radiator, then it started overflowing slightly, over time the overflow intensified and that's when I decided to shut the bike off and it surprised me by puking coolant all over! Should have read the full thread before attempting this

 

[nycrider]

Haha same thing happened to me. Stood the bike upright with res and rad caps open, res coolant drained, I set it on the kickstand. I started the bike and let it run for about 5 minutes. During those 5 minutes, a lot of air bubbles started coming out of the radiator, then it started overflowing slightly, over time the overflow intensified and that's when I decided to shut the bike off and it surprised me by puking coolant all over! Should have read the full thread before attempting this

Okay, before I flushed, refilled and burped the new coolant, my bike was unbearable. It overheated and red engine light came on basically every stop, as well as in slow moving traffic. That along with the 3-4k rpm deadspot made the every ride obnoxious. I was being terrorized by the engine at every red light. After emptying the old coolant into a former 1 gallon milk container, it filled up only 3/4"-1" which I found was odd since I expected more. I flushed the radiator with distilled water and then I poured new coolant in. After that, I've burped the system a few times and a large amount of air bubbles surfaced. Afterwards I took the bike on a 2 hour ride in heavy traffic and let the bike idle a few times on the side of the road during the ride for 10 minutes at a time and it hasn't overheated once! Now on the dash the temperature never surpasses 4 bars away from maximum. 30 seconds after it reaches that state, the fan kicks in dropping 1-2 bars and the cycle repeats. Now the only thing that bothers me about this bike is the 3-4k rpm deadspot. Thank you guys for your inputs in this thread.

 

[engineerk9]

Okay, before I flushed, refilled and burped the new coolant, my bike was unbearable. It overheated and red engine light came on basically every stop, as well as in slow moving traffic. That along with the 3-4k rpm deadspot made the every ride obnoxious. I was being terrorized by the engine at every red light. After emptying the old coolant into a former 1 gallon milk container, it filled up only 3/4"-1" which I found was odd since I expected more. I flushed the radiator with distilled water and then I poured new coolant in. After that, I've burped the system a few times and a large amount of air bubbles surfaced. Afterwards I took the bike on a 2 hour ride in heavy traffic and let the bike idle a few times on the side of the road during the ride for 10 minutes at a time and it hasn't overheated once! Now on the dash the temperature never surpasses 4 bars away from maximum. 30 seconds after it reaches that state, the fan kicks in dropping 1-2 bars and the cycle repeats. Now the only thing that bothers me about this bike is the 3-4k rpm deadspot. Thank you guys for your inputs in this thread.

Interesting, the GS911 tests indicated that the radiator fan cuts-in at over 100degC, which would indicate that cooling water treatment is critical &/or one of the specialist coolants might be of benefit

 

[Andrew P]

Has anyone tried the tusk radiator cap 1.8 bar?