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Hi everyone,
As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.
When he passed, I worked with his kids to gather the necessary credentials to keep this site running. Since then (and for however long they worked with Coffee), Woodschick and Dirtdame have been maintaining the site and covering the costs. Without their hard work and financial support, CafeHusky would have been lost.
Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.
Unfortunately, the new software version doesn’t support importing the old site’s styles, so for now, you’ll see the XenForo default style. This may change over time.
Coffee didn’t document the work he did on the site, so I’ve been digging through the old setup to understand how everything was running. There may still be things I’ve missed. One known issue is that email functionality is not yet working on the new site, but I hope to resolve this over time.
Thanks for your patience and support!
All 2st 2 Stroke Oil
- Thread starter bhc357
- Start date
LawnDartMike;122982 said:I also run 927 at 32:1. I have used it in a KX65, KX250, WR125 (144) and KX85 and have never had an issue with the PV getting gummed up, rings sticking or carbon build up and I run lower RPMs 90 percent of the time. I think most of that information comes from people that ran pure castor which the Maxima 927 is not.
From the Maxima site:
"Castor 927 is a unique blend of highly refined castor oil, a specially prepared synthetic and an additive system that reduces carbon and gum formation and provides excellent rust & corrosion protection. Castor 927 also contains an exclusive additive that keeps power valves cleaner and working properly."
Yep, I have not had this issue either. I have also used Super M also from Maxima. I usually put way more miles than anyone I know on my bikes without rebuilding. I have a mechanic friend that I told this oil about and he swears it helps cleans the PV and topend
He is pretty pumped about this oil but I have used many others with good results, including Silkolene,Amzoil, and Golden Spectro back in the 80's. I am so old I know who Ron Lechien is
hammer
Husqvarna
AA Class
Here is something to think about
Spooge...
Any of you that believe that spooge is caused by too much oil in the mix are flat out wrong. If you know how to jet, you can run any amount of oil you choose, and have absolutely zero spooge.
Looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded and hard-headed on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.
There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. And there is also a very common belief that spooge is caused by too much oil in the fuel mix. Both are wrong. The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil. And spooge is caused by rich jetting.
When an engine is jetted too rich, the excess fuel leeches heat from the combustion process, causing the combustion chamber temperatures to be too low to effectively burn the oil, or even completely burn all of the fuel. The result is spooge and deposits. The spooge is nothing more than unburned fuel and oil passing out the exhaust.
If you have a spooge problem, you have a jetting problem. You don't get rid of the spooge by reducing the oil, you get rid of it by fixing the jetting. Correct jetting will produce an air/fuel ratio of about 14:1, which will produce combustion temperatures in the 1200 degree range. This will provide sufficient heat to consume the premix oil.
You don't choose a mix ratio based on "spooge", you choose the ratio based on the amount of oil your engine needs to provide sufficient protection and adequate ring seal. The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be frther from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.
The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.
With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.
To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around by the spinning crankshaft, and being distributed through the engine by the air currents moving through the crankcase. The main bearings are lubed by some of this oil dripping down through tiny "drip passages" in the cases above the bearing pockets.
People believe that the oil just rushes right through a two-stroke along with the fuel, but that just isn't so. It can take 90 minutes or more for the oil migration through a two-stroke to result in a complete oil exchange.
The oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.
With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.
One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.
Now we come to the issue of ring seal. Simply put, the rings alone can not effectively seal the cylinder. They also need oil to provide a complete seal against the bore surface. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.
I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.
Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
Spooge...
Any of you that believe that spooge is caused by too much oil in the mix are flat out wrong. If you know how to jet, you can run any amount of oil you choose, and have absolutely zero spooge.
Looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded and hard-headed on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.
There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. And there is also a very common belief that spooge is caused by too much oil in the fuel mix. Both are wrong. The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil. And spooge is caused by rich jetting.
When an engine is jetted too rich, the excess fuel leeches heat from the combustion process, causing the combustion chamber temperatures to be too low to effectively burn the oil, or even completely burn all of the fuel. The result is spooge and deposits. The spooge is nothing more than unburned fuel and oil passing out the exhaust.
If you have a spooge problem, you have a jetting problem. You don't get rid of the spooge by reducing the oil, you get rid of it by fixing the jetting. Correct jetting will produce an air/fuel ratio of about 14:1, which will produce combustion temperatures in the 1200 degree range. This will provide sufficient heat to consume the premix oil.
You don't choose a mix ratio based on "spooge", you choose the ratio based on the amount of oil your engine needs to provide sufficient protection and adequate ring seal. The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be frther from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.
The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.
With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.
To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around by the spinning crankshaft, and being distributed through the engine by the air currents moving through the crankcase. The main bearings are lubed by some of this oil dripping down through tiny "drip passages" in the cases above the bearing pockets.
People believe that the oil just rushes right through a two-stroke along with the fuel, but that just isn't so. It can take 90 minutes or more for the oil migration through a two-stroke to result in a complete oil exchange.
The oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.
With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.
One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.
Now we come to the issue of ring seal. Simply put, the rings alone can not effectively seal the cylinder. They also need oil to provide a complete seal against the bore surface. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.
I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.
Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
BadMotoWeazal
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Dealer got some Repsol 2T race syn, it didn't sale very well, but because it was on sale I tried it. I never looked at another bottle of Motul 800 again. Used lots of Spectro Golden too
Vinduro
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Back in the 70s and early 80s we mixed at 20:1 with Full Bore oil and later Suzuki CCI. Burned clean. Now I have been using Maxima Super M at 40:1 and in some vintage bikes I use Opti2 at 64:1. I have not seen a oil that I have had good luck mixing at 50:1. The Opti2 works best at 64:1 to 80:1, but although it seems to work well I still worry about crank lubrication. ( I had a case of Opti2 left over from when I had a WWI Replica Nieuport that had a LOW rpm 2 stroke engine. )
IMO.
IMO.
Hammer;
What a thoughtful concise explanation, it also helps that it is accurate. Bean oil rules.:unitedkingdom: I have used your theory on my wr250 with results, although because of the quality of Motorex 2-T and others there are some alternative aspects to the equation. Metals have improved as have the oil over the 70's and 80's allowing for variations of the main theme, such as the ability to run leaner jetting than you would think prudent. You are correct that oil-fuel ratio's are subjective. Good article fer sure
What a thoughtful concise explanation, it also helps that it is accurate. Bean oil rules.:unitedkingdom: I have used your theory on my wr250 with results, although because of the quality of Motorex 2-T and others there are some alternative aspects to the equation. Metals have improved as have the oil over the 70's and 80's allowing for variations of the main theme, such as the ability to run leaner jetting than you would think prudent. You are correct that oil-fuel ratio's are subjective. Good article fer sure
Troy F Collins
Husqvarna
AA Class
I spoke with a Maxima Rep at a bike show
He spoke exactly what Hammer says....
I've been using "the Dogger oil" for quite some time...Maxima K2 32:1
a bit of spooge on a cold day...dry at the tip on a hot day
but for me I like the smell
A friend of mine used to say "its got what your smelling for"
He spoke exactly what Hammer says....
I've been using "the Dogger oil" for quite some time...Maxima K2 32:1
a bit of spooge on a cold day...dry at the tip on a hot day
but for me I like the smell
A friend of mine used to say "its got what your smelling for"
Hammers treatise is interesting and it fits with other information I have seen.
Since many of us were around when Bel-Ray? triggered the synthetic premix revolution ... were they just telling us we could run it at twice the ratio to justify the double price over that common Bardahl we were using. I wonder.
What I dont hear anyone talking about is the amount of oil being burned(or unburned) in the exhaust, which contributes to pollution. At times that has been used as an additional argument for using the high ratio synthetics; although it sounds like a better argument for using a well designed oil injection system so the oil goes where it is needed, not floating around in the fuel.
Since many of us were around when Bel-Ray? triggered the synthetic premix revolution ... were they just telling us we could run it at twice the ratio to justify the double price over that common Bardahl we were using. I wonder.
What I dont hear anyone talking about is the amount of oil being burned(or unburned) in the exhaust, which contributes to pollution. At times that has been used as an additional argument for using the high ratio synthetics; although it sounds like a better argument for using a well designed oil injection system so the oil goes where it is needed, not floating around in the fuel.
BillO
Husqvarna
AA Class
Hammer is right, and so is Bel-Ray.
A couple of things here.
First, I think Bel-Ray stated that MC-1 was good for 50:1, not that you should just go ahead and run that ratio. More, it was that it would work in situations that called for 50:1. I think of it as creative suggestion.
Second, will H1-R (today's Bel-Ray) protect and work better at 40:1 than a cheapo "Two-stroke Oil" from K-Mart at 32:1? Almost certainly.
However, you can still use H1-R at 32:1 with no ill effects.
A couple of things here.
First, I think Bel-Ray stated that MC-1 was good for 50:1, not that you should just go ahead and run that ratio. More, it was that it would work in situations that called for 50:1. I think of it as creative suggestion.
Second, will H1-R (today's Bel-Ray) protect and work better at 40:1 than a cheapo "Two-stroke Oil" from K-Mart at 32:1? Almost certainly.
However, you can still use H1-R at 32:1 with no ill effects.
Vinduro
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Joe Chod;123235 said:
Ahhhh, The smell of Castor oil hanging in the air on a foggy morning when the Dawn Patrol takes off. The smell of Freedom ********************************************************************************!
Bzzzzzzzzzzup............Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzup................Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzup (sound of a LeRhone Rotary coming in for a landing !) (My next WWI warbird replica will be a Airco DH-2)
Vinduro
Husqvarna
Pro Class
As for BelRay MC1 .......... We were sponsored by Belray in 1976 but had to quit using it as it gummed up the rings and had crank failures. Once Kawasaki was denying warrrenty on bikes using MC1 as every single bike that had a crank failure was using MC1. Myself , I noticed much shorter piston life also using MC1 over HiPoint / Golden Spectro. BUT, Golden Spectro really gums up Powervalves and Spark arrestors. BUT it does lubricate pretty good at 40:1.