GOAT is the proper shorthand.
-
Hi everyone,
As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.
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Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.
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Thanks for your patience and support!
New fangled air forks on sx race bikes ...
- Thread starter ray_ray
- Start date
Evan Murphy
Husqvarna
I thought it was funny on the Phoenix broadcast how Emig was trying to change the subject and not respond to RC's criticizms of RV's Kawi. He's still a Kawi brand ambassador and test rider. That being said, Barcia ran the Air Fork too and he fard pretty well. I think RV just needs some more set-up time. Stewart probably would have ran different brand tires, whined and jumped ship by now.
Ah he can't win everything, he's no GOAT. You guys are looking to deep into this lol
MotoMarc36
Husqvarna
Pro Class
OK the "free piston" isn't shown on the spring fork but most certainly is there. It is part of the cartridge assembly and what it does is moves backwards as the damperrod moves into the cartridge and displaces oil, just like oil moves into your shock resivior and compresses the bladder (or moves the piston in an ohlins/sachs) as the rod enters the body and displaces oil.
ALL twinchamber closed-cartridge forks use some form of free piston. It is also spring-loaded and exerts a force on the oil which helps stabilize it and lessen cavitation. However in the airfork it appears that a spring is unnecessary as the airpressure acts on the piston, hence the "free" piston name. Kinda cool!
The oil-lock is pretty traditional and is used in both closed and open cartridge forks. The so-called "bottoming cones" that you hear about. It's a hydralic cussion to lessen or eliminate metal-to-metal contact.
If you blow a fork seal you are screwed, it will most certainly leak both air and oil.
While a cool concept, I would hesitate to convert a standard fork to air for many reasons, but mainly because it was designed to use a spring and while I haven't tried one I doubt it would exceed the performance of either the springfork or the purpose-built airfork. Hell, KYB could have saved a boatload of money if all they had to do was ditch the spring, change the seals, and add air!!
310huskyTE
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Dungey is trying air as well but in the shock not the forks.
http://www.transmoto.com.au/publish/news/18383067/KTM's-Air-Shock-Shock
http://www.transmoto.com.au/publish/news/18383067/KTM's-Air-Shock-Shock
pvduke
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I for one look forward to the day of non telescopic forks.
I miss the "works" days. Check out the twin expansion chambers. Man they tried a bunch of stuff back then. Bikes have been largely stagnant the last 10 years. Refinement is fine but love to see out of the box thinking.
um...where did you get that picture? security wants to know. this one's a work of art. with drum brakes!!! see the lil doohickey on the swing arm? you wouldnt believe the wraps these things kept under. or the 500/250. i coveteth the 500/250. so much so i got some bracelets shown to me once...and if i didnt leave?....so i snapped the throttle on it once and RAN LIKE HELL. lol...fat guys are slow.
pvduke
Husqvarna
Pro Class
whats old is new again. front and rear! these forks are a lot like my Manitou R7, from 2002! lol. who remembers FOX shox!
boys- these air forks wont pop-n-drop. if you pooch a leg seal and it pukes oil it wont loose its air and leave ya hanging. aint built that way. they also offer a huge range of adjustment. there's no springs to buy. so if the dampers are in the right neighborhood you are good to go. i say bring it. front and rr.
boys- these air forks wont pop-n-drop. if you pooch a leg seal and it pukes oil it wont loose its air and leave ya hanging. aint built that way. they also offer a huge range of adjustment. there's no springs to buy. so if the dampers are in the right neighborhood you are good to go. i say bring it. front and rr.
Desertyucca
Husqvarna
AA Class
Report!
My Son 2013 CRF450R AIR Forks leaked in the first 5 HR of Ride. He is like 145 Lbs! Talking to Honda, MX Bikes zero warranty told him he is #@!$ out of luck! Leaked Oil and AIR after 3 trips to the track! Took the entire suspension to Pro-Circuit and confirmed he was not the first to have this problem. Hard to say how long the seals will last this round! Sounds like a High Maintenance item! Would they really survive a Baja 1000!
Edit:
To keep this post fair the new seals we were told are not factory. I will let everyone know how the upgraded suspension holds and performs. I also wonder if JCR upgraded or keep the springs?
My Son 2013 CRF450R AIR Forks leaked in the first 5 HR of Ride. He is like 145 Lbs! Talking to Honda, MX Bikes zero warranty told him he is #@!$ out of luck! Leaked Oil and AIR after 3 trips to the track! Took the entire suspension to Pro-Circuit and confirmed he was not the first to have this problem. Hard to say how long the seals will last this round! Sounds like a High Maintenance item! Would they really survive a Baja 1000!
Edit:
To keep this post fair the new seals we were told are not factory. I will let everyone know how the upgraded suspension holds and performs.
I also wonder if JCR upgraded or keep the springs?
Report!
My Son 2013 CRF450R AIR Forks leaked in the first 5 HR of Ride. He is like 145 Lbs! Talking to Honda, MX Bikes zero warranty told him he is #@!$ out of luck! Leaked Oil and AIR after 3 trips to the track! Took the entire suspension to Pro-Circuit and confirmed he was not the first to have this problem. Hard to say how long the seals will last this round! Sounds like a High Maintenance item! Would they really survive a Baja 1000!
No thank you, I'll stick with springs.
Not sure why that is ion that side of the swingarm as I think that is a pivot for the rear brake isolation. When there were all these works bikes I used to spend hours with mags staring and engineering in my head. Just how I am wired. Loved that time when factories tried EVERYTHING and we had those cool Mugens Hondas to look at.
If you like that stuff go here and wait many house staring at these cool old bikes.
http://www.mxworksbike.com/bikes a.htm
flyingbob
Administrator
Using auto fill??? Or is that a Jackie Chan impersonation!
MikeB
Husqvarna
AA Class
I thought the Honda's had front end problems at A1: watch Canard using an outside line just after the pits while the SuZuki and KTM can go inside. I think someone on a Honda washed the front in that turn in a heat race also. In general it looks like Canard and RV are having to use outside lines to rail or steer with the rear to dive from outside in (RV) - can't really trust the front like the Suzuki.
water racer
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I am waiting to see if air forks are the way of the future or just another 23" front wheel....
Xcuvator
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Really interesting and cool, I haven't seen that website MX was so born in Europe.
I got to see some of the Inter AM series in 72. There was such a difference between Euro and AM riders. They ran in different classes then.. Shorter motos for AM etc. All the factory riders were there from Europe, still stuck in my memory...
I've no problem with the move towards Air Forks.
But I Do have a problem with the way that it appears it is being done.
It could stop development of them in their tracks, purely from customer disappointment.
I've not got to work on either the Showas or Kayabas. Some blokes have said that one exposes the main seals to the Air Spring Pressure, and the other doesn't. By that picture, that unit relies on the main seals, as the main air seal. Both the KX and Hondas Are Kayabas, but , reportedly, quite different. Perhaps the KX items have an internal air chamber - I just do not know.
Having the main fork seals as the primary air seal is Ancient History Air sealing. It leaves me stunned in these times. It's obviously done as a cost savings, but it is Idiocy.
It leaves failure Much more likely.
It must come down purely to cost of production.
Or, the "Not designed Here" syndrome.
The designers should have looked towards the top end MTB air forks, for a few lessons in proper, more reliable design. One being Separate Air Spring Chamber design. Thus keeping the air chamber main seals further away from outside elements. Yes, in better designed MTB Air Forks, the Air Chamber Seal can fail, then you have the final stanchion seal exposed to the air pressure - which can then fail. And of course, the air springing, would lower considerably. But, by having the actual air spring chamber with oil on the outside of the seal, and on the inside - in the form of an internal air chamber lube, you get a very reliable air spring.
Negative springs, which are not that necessary on a MC, due to the massive sprung weight difference between and MC and MTB, can take the form of either a spring steel negative spring, or an air negative spring. You can also run a twin (or more, but that's getting a bit out of hand) MAIN air spring chamber, to easily change "spring" characteristics, and deal with "Spring Rate Changes" due to heat, with dry air, by using a system like the nitrogen chamber in Fox's TALAS Forks. This is what I use on my air spring forks on my MTB - I delete the TA part of the TALAS system, and retain the LAS setup. Though, I'm in the position to do what I want with the suspension, that few others are in.
There is so much adjustment available with air forks, dependent on the set up used. Simple, mechanical position adjustable pistons can make for easy changes in progression, and initial movement - you don't Have to go with more air chambers. The Ease of external adjustment, with Multiple adjustments, are shown by the High End MTB forks available - but every bit of "extras", will cost.
What we have, currently, is the cheapest Air Forks you can think of.
And THAT, could be the death knell for 'new use of old tech'. I really hope that Air forks have not been "shot in the foot", by their re-introduction with a Cheap, Idiotic Air Chamber design.
To me, an SFAF, or SFAFBP set of forks would be the absolute 'GO'. Forks are so large now, that one whole side, just being the Air Spring, and the other side being a Big Piston Damper, could deliver incredible performance, without Big Prices, and With Great Reliability.
The use of the IFP for the damper unit, being exposed to the main air chamber, is convenient - and it ties it into the position of the fork through it's travel - in terms of the pressure acting on it being 'linked to the rise in the air spring pressure. I'd say factory level forks may retain a separate 'force' adjustment on the damper IFP, for finer adjustment, and the isolation of separate systems.
Air Sprung Shocks are long overdue - especially for non link systems - though they lend themselves well to linkage set ups, with potential weight saving and wide tuning possibilities. It's good to see KTM / WP trying the air shock on Cairoli's, De Dycker's, Herling's etc, etc, and now Dungey's' bike. He's gone to and from the air shock and Steel Spring shock, this last weekend back on the air shock. I'm interested to find out whether or not the time delay is connected to, perhaps, the expiration of patents, such as what may have been held by the recently late, but Always Great, Georges Jobe (R.I.P.), Jobe FM company, and or other companies patents. It's just over 10 years since KTM WP got to try Jobe FMs air shock (go the MXAs website, for recent 're-discovery' of Jobe FM's Air Shock they tested.
And their are a fair few companies making high end air shocks, that are of very high performance.
Oh, for those that don't know, that 'twin pipe' Honda, was a Twin Cylinder. Honda had twin cylinder 125s and 250 RCs, that saw use in the All Japan series, in the early eighties. Yamaha had twin cylinder 125s, Aprilia had a twin cylinder 125, even earlier. Twins were banned, by the FIM, to ''keep costs down''.
Pity a bit of forethought like that wasn't given to 4 Stroke usage - Superbike type Tech, and the revs that 4ts Have to pull, to get power, does Not make for cheap to run bikes. Even when the bloody things are allowed to be 3/4 to Twice the capacity of 2ts.
I've always found it funny / infuriating that the FIM, could so instantaneously allow twins back into MXGPs, with Aprilia (whose Racing of a 125 Twin got then banned from MXGPs). Yet, NOT, just as quickly, allow equivalency for 2ts. 250 2ts usage in MX2 WAS Set into the 2010 MXGP FIM Regulations, at the 09 FIM Congress, but that was 'disappeared', just as quickly, in early 2010. Big 'H's influence, no doubt.
Honda kept at it, with the twins for a few extra years . It certainly would have been useful development of a reed valve twin cylinder 2t, that could have been applicable to the NS / RS 250 Twin Road Racers, later on. The Ribi Fork design, that Honda bought at Decosters insistence, was further developed, but with as many as 18, or more pivot points,
*****think of the almost instant swingarm linkage clearance slop at the rear wheel of a new linkage bike, the first time you ride it - that should give you a fright as to the potential 'slop' so many pivot points could lead to, plus the Huge expense of the ultra high quality bearings / seals required to combat that problem****
, and the inherent disadvantage of polar moment / inertia of the apparatus's weight / mass being so far from the turning center, even with gorgeous machined alloy construction. The 'Engineering Abomination' of telescopic forks works bloody well, after all.
Though, I still adore the Ribi Quadrilateral Forks!
All Japan Series Works bikes could / can be quite Outrageously trick things. Honda had 250 Auto Gearbox RCM Works Bikes bikes, in the era of Eric Geboers winning 250 GPs, and the Trampas Parker / Mike Healy (sp ?) wars. And not just geared or hydraulic autos - lever arm autos, that were further tested, many years later, in the Works Honda Downhill Bicycles. Few things are better for testing than the ultra low RPM, but Huge Torque levels provided by human legs, for testing the efficiency of a gearbox, and it's changing / smoothness. Any drag/ hang ups / inefficiencies, will rapidly be found, by a human being being the power source. Though, they ended up using an 'internal derailleur' system, within a casing, once they had achieved their testing objectives
But I Do have a problem with the way that it appears it is being done.
It could stop development of them in their tracks, purely from customer disappointment.
I've not got to work on either the Showas or Kayabas. Some blokes have said that one exposes the main seals to the Air Spring Pressure, and the other doesn't. By that picture, that unit relies on the main seals, as the main air seal. Both the KX and Hondas Are Kayabas, but , reportedly, quite different. Perhaps the KX items have an internal air chamber - I just do not know.
Having the main fork seals as the primary air seal is Ancient History Air sealing. It leaves me stunned in these times. It's obviously done as a cost savings, but it is Idiocy.
It leaves failure Much more likely.
It must come down purely to cost of production.
Or, the "Not designed Here" syndrome.
The designers should have looked towards the top end MTB air forks, for a few lessons in proper, more reliable design. One being Separate Air Spring Chamber design. Thus keeping the air chamber main seals further away from outside elements. Yes, in better designed MTB Air Forks, the Air Chamber Seal can fail, then you have the final stanchion seal exposed to the air pressure - which can then fail. And of course, the air springing, would lower considerably. But, by having the actual air spring chamber with oil on the outside of the seal, and on the inside - in the form of an internal air chamber lube, you get a very reliable air spring.
Negative springs, which are not that necessary on a MC, due to the massive sprung weight difference between and MC and MTB, can take the form of either a spring steel negative spring, or an air negative spring. You can also run a twin (or more, but that's getting a bit out of hand) MAIN air spring chamber, to easily change "spring" characteristics, and deal with "Spring Rate Changes" due to heat, with dry air, by using a system like the nitrogen chamber in Fox's TALAS Forks. This is what I use on my air spring forks on my MTB - I delete the TA part of the TALAS system, and retain the LAS setup. Though, I'm in the position to do what I want with the suspension, that few others are in.
There is so much adjustment available with air forks, dependent on the set up used. Simple, mechanical position adjustable pistons can make for easy changes in progression, and initial movement - you don't Have to go with more air chambers. The Ease of external adjustment, with Multiple adjustments, are shown by the High End MTB forks available - but every bit of "extras", will cost.
What we have, currently, is the cheapest Air Forks you can think of.
And THAT, could be the death knell for 'new use of old tech'. I really hope that Air forks have not been "shot in the foot", by their re-introduction with a Cheap, Idiotic Air Chamber design.
To me, an SFAF, or SFAFBP set of forks would be the absolute 'GO'. Forks are so large now, that one whole side, just being the Air Spring, and the other side being a Big Piston Damper, could deliver incredible performance, without Big Prices, and With Great Reliability.
The use of the IFP for the damper unit, being exposed to the main air chamber, is convenient - and it ties it into the position of the fork through it's travel - in terms of the pressure acting on it being 'linked to the rise in the air spring pressure. I'd say factory level forks may retain a separate 'force' adjustment on the damper IFP, for finer adjustment, and the isolation of separate systems.
Air Sprung Shocks are long overdue - especially for non link systems - though they lend themselves well to linkage set ups, with potential weight saving and wide tuning possibilities. It's good to see KTM / WP trying the air shock on Cairoli's, De Dycker's, Herling's etc, etc, and now Dungey's' bike. He's gone to and from the air shock and Steel Spring shock, this last weekend back on the air shock. I'm interested to find out whether or not the time delay is connected to, perhaps, the expiration of patents, such as what may have been held by the recently late, but Always Great, Georges Jobe (R.I.P.), Jobe FM company, and or other companies patents. It's just over 10 years since KTM WP got to try Jobe FMs air shock (go the MXAs website, for recent 're-discovery' of Jobe FM's Air Shock they tested.
And their are a fair few companies making high end air shocks, that are of very high performance.
Oh, for those that don't know, that 'twin pipe' Honda, was a Twin Cylinder. Honda had twin cylinder 125s and 250 RCs, that saw use in the All Japan series, in the early eighties. Yamaha had twin cylinder 125s, Aprilia had a twin cylinder 125, even earlier. Twins were banned, by the FIM, to ''keep costs down''.
Pity a bit of forethought like that wasn't given to 4 Stroke usage - Superbike type Tech, and the revs that 4ts Have to pull, to get power, does Not make for cheap to run bikes. Even when the bloody things are allowed to be 3/4 to Twice the capacity of 2ts.
I've always found it funny / infuriating that the FIM, could so instantaneously allow twins back into MXGPs, with Aprilia (whose Racing of a 125 Twin got then banned from MXGPs). Yet, NOT, just as quickly, allow equivalency for 2ts. 250 2ts usage in MX2 WAS Set into the 2010 MXGP FIM Regulations, at the 09 FIM Congress, but that was 'disappeared', just as quickly, in early 2010. Big 'H's influence, no doubt.
Honda kept at it, with the twins for a few extra years . It certainly would have been useful development of a reed valve twin cylinder 2t, that could have been applicable to the NS / RS 250 Twin Road Racers, later on. The Ribi Fork design, that Honda bought at Decosters insistence, was further developed, but with as many as 18, or more pivot points,
*****think of the almost instant swingarm linkage clearance slop at the rear wheel of a new linkage bike, the first time you ride it - that should give you a fright as to the potential 'slop' so many pivot points could lead to, plus the Huge expense of the ultra high quality bearings / seals required to combat that problem****
, and the inherent disadvantage of polar moment / inertia of the apparatus's weight / mass being so far from the turning center, even with gorgeous machined alloy construction. The 'Engineering Abomination' of telescopic forks works bloody well, after all.
Though, I still adore the Ribi Quadrilateral Forks!
All Japan Series Works bikes could / can be quite Outrageously trick things. Honda had 250 Auto Gearbox RCM Works Bikes bikes, in the era of Eric Geboers winning 250 GPs, and the Trampas Parker / Mike Healy (sp ?) wars. And not just geared or hydraulic autos - lever arm autos, that were further tested, many years later, in the Works Honda Downhill Bicycles. Few things are better for testing than the ultra low RPM, but Huge Torque levels provided by human legs, for testing the efficiency of a gearbox, and it's changing / smoothness. Any drag/ hang ups / inefficiencies, will rapidly be found, by a human being being the power source. Though, they ended up using an 'internal derailleur' system, within a casing, once they had achieved their testing objectives
jtemple
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Most MTBs are air sprung nowadays.