AF-XIED Beta for Husqvarna TR650

[Roger 04 RT]

Hi Roger l see in an Australian mag adverts for the EJK Units, for the BMW, have you any comments ?

The ejk requires that the O2 sensor is disconnected. That disables mixture adaptation by the ecu. Also, adjusting it is blind trial and error. There isn't an easy way to measure what it's doing.

Since I have two O2 sensor bungs side by side I did install an ejk and measure it with my LC-1.

I think with enough trial and error you might be able to get a good install but I'm not a fan of it.

 

[engineerk9]

The ejk requires that the O2 sensor is disconnected. That disables mixture adaptation by the ecu. Also, adjusting it is blind trial and error. There isn't an easy way to measure what it's doing.

Since I have two O2 sensor bungs side by side I did install an ejk and measure it with my LC-1.

I think with enough trial and error you might be able to get a good install but I'm not a fan of it.

Thank you, Phew ! Will stick with your AF-XIED unit, could be plenty good enough for my needs

 

[Quirky]

Hi Roger thank you for your knowledge
Since fitting the AF-XIED, left on 7, I've been doing a number of 80-100klm runs, then an hours cooling down (coffee break) then another 80-100klms
As the ecu "unlearns" the spoofers & "learns" the new parameters - as you predicted
Certainly, the motor appears to be getting more responsive & less vibration each time I start - I don't know how long I have to run this process
There still seems to be some minor detonation at approx 4,500rpm during full throttle acceleration in top gear, when pulling hard (it's easy to ride around, more a point to note), this could be leanness, which as you suggest will be corrected out
Now that I'm more than happy with the performance, as soon as the new airbox arrives, l'll tidy everything up & enjoy the ride

I couldn't shake the detonation issue like you describe even with a Power Commander V. It has never detonated above 5000rpm or below 4600rpm. My next considered option was to pull the engine down and reduce the compression ratio. I sadly just got fed up and have now moved on from this bike.

Cheers,

Q

 

[engineerk9]

I couldn't shake the detonation issue like you describe even with a Power Commander V. It has never detonated above 5000rpm or below 4600rpm. My next considered option was to pull the engine down and reduce the compression ratio. I sadly just got fed up and have now moved on from this bike.

Cheers,

Q

KTM 690 maybe ?

 

[mag00]

I couldn't shake the detonation issue like you describe even with a Power Commander V. It has never detonated above 5000rpm or below 4600rpm. My next considered option was to pull the engine down and reduce the compression ratio. I sadly just got fed up and have now moved on from this bike.

Cheers,

Q

Well, sorry to hear you give up on it. Oh well, hopefully the next ride treats you good.

 

[mag00]

Hi Roger thank you for your knowledge
Since fitting the AF-XIED, left on 7, I've been doing a number of 80-100klm runs, then an hours cooling down (coffee break) then another 80-100klms
As the ecu "unlearns" the spoofers & "learns" the new parameters - as you predicted
Certainly, the motor appears to be getting more responsive & less vibration each time I start - I don't know how long I have to run this process
There still seems to be some minor detonation at approx 4,500rpm during full throttle acceleration in top gear, when pulling hard (it's easy to ride around, more a point to note), this could be leanness, which as you suggest will be corrected out
Now that I'm more than happy with the performance, as soon as the new airbox arrives, l'll tidy everything up & enjoy the ride

That is not a minor problem. Quirky can tell you. Maybe search some of his older posts.

He was the first to run AFxied. Is there a correlation? You have my attention.

 

[engineerk9]

That is not a minor problem. Quirky can tell you. Maybe search some of his older posts.

He was the first to run AFxied. Is there a correlation? You have my attention.

I wonder what the un-modified engines run like? Do they have detonations?

I'm returning to Sydney, mid March, will give a few long-ish test rides, 80-100klms, with cooling-off, let's see how things go

I wonder what the ecu is doing, besides leaning the fuel off, is it also advancing the ignition ?

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Richening an engine's mixture several percent below stoichiometric (lambda=1, which is 14.7:1) doesn't cause detonation in an engine nor a blown head as in Quirky's case. I don't think anyone could seriously believe that it would.

However, there is more LC-2 data coming in every week on the Husky TR650. Last week Geeza sent me some cold start logs from his tr650 running at lambda=1, no enrichment.

The warm up profile looked good. However, after he blipped the throttle several times he notice a period of rough idling. When we went back and examined the log, the MM ECU had lost control of closed loop and the idling AFR was about 17:1. After 15-20 seconds, the ECU dropped back into Closed Loop (all on its own) and the bike idled properly.

The point is that there are now several measurements that show weaknesses in the MM ECUs control of fueling. It would be better to make more measurements and ignore armchair speculations.

 

[mag00]

I wonder what the un-modified engines run like? Do they have detonations?

I'm returning to Sydney, mid March, will give a few long-ish test rides, 80-100klms, with cooling-off, let's see how things go

I wonder what the ecu is doing, besides leaning the fuel off, is it also advancing the ignition ?

Pre detonation or pinging, I believe is what you are referring to.

Pre detonation can be a result of a number of things, including hot spots from carbon buildup. Carbon buildup on our bikes can be more of a problem than on many other lower compression engines. Any carbon buildup takes some of the final compressed chamber volume, which will increase the compression (more heat). It (carbon) also will hold heat, which can ignite the mix early, and that will cause the ping too.

Carbonizing the combustion chamber is only one of my concerns. My bike runs fine lean, I have no drivability issues. I will be adding the dobeck fueler to see if I get more power, and I should get up to 4 hp gain, is my guess. I won't run it 100% of the time, only for fun.

And while the o2 spoof may not "adapt out", the ecu will adapt, and that may be in the form of ignition timing. No empirical data one way or the other on timing. Carbon build (black soot in tailpipe) has been noted with the added fuel.

Is the AFxied a contributing factor? When did the pinging start, before or after its install? If you say after, you know what you have to do, remove it. If pinging was before adding it, I would remove it, take bike to dealer and get the bike fixed, then decide if you need to add it.

But as Quirky said, he was thinking of lowering the compression, and I believe that was after his engine blew up and the PC5 did not fix the issue after the rebuild. There is a company (Cometic) that makes the thicker head gasket for the BMW which will work to lower the compression. Rather affordable ($60) too, since my Husky dealer does not carry the head gasket for the TR650.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

...

And while the o2 spoof may not "adapt out", the ecu will adapt, and that may be in the form of ignition timing. No empirical data one way or the other on timing. Carbon build (black soot in tailpipe) has been noted with the added fuel.

...

The way that lambda-shifting functions—by providing a richer reference standard for closed loop operation—the MM ECU is completely unaware of its existence. As a result, it can't adapt out and there is no effect on ignition timing.

Does the TR650 have a knock detection sensor? If it does there could be spark advance adaptation based on that.

It seems far more likely to me that the POD mod and other intake and exhaust changes, coupled with oil related carbon build-up, or fuel octane is responsible for the "pinging".

 

[engineerk9]

The way that lambda-shifting functions—by providing a richer reference standard for closed loop operation—the MM ECU is completely unaware of its existence. As a result, it can't adapt out and there is no effect on ignition timing.

Does the TR650 have a knock detection sensor? If it does there could be spark advance adaptation based on that.

It seems far more likely to me that the POD mod and other intake and exhaust changes, couple with oil related carbon build-up, or fuel octane is responsible for the "pinging".

Hi Roger current

The way that lambda-shifting functions—by providing a richer reference standard for closed loop operation—the MM ECU is completely unaware of its existence. As a result, it can't adapt out and there is no effect on ignition timing.

Does the TR650 have a knock detection sensor? If it does there could be spark advance adaptation based on that.

It seems far more likely to me that the POD mod and other intake and exhaust changes, couple with oil related carbon build-up, or fuel octane is responsible for the "pinging".

Hi Roger, currently I'm on an Offshore Supply Vessel bouncing around in the middle of the Bass Strait
I'm not aware that the TR has a "knock-sensor"
I agree with you that the ecu is unaware that the O2 sensor signal is being "altered"
I don't have the dyno chart with me out here, however there's a definite leaning-out occurring at approx 4,500 rpm on full throttle top gear acceleration, it shows an AFR 14.5 when it pings
I'm running Denso iridium plugs, plus the Pod-mod & GPR single can exhaust, the AIT is where the OEM air filter was (cool air)
I've had no opportunity to run other than the 7 setting, I had hoped to run the 8 as you had suggested, however work called
In Australia we have 98RON
All my dyno runs show a dramatic switching approx 4,500 rpm which I take to be the Closed/Open Loop change-over point
I also had the idea of looking at the ignition pick-up & possibly retarding by 1 or 2 degs
I'm not back in Sydney till end of March
I do very much appreciate your input

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Ek9, It would be great if in of the guys with the LC-2 would take a test run on the road at wot.

I suggest put the bike in 4th gear on a level road, stabilize at 1800-2000 RPM, then WOT to the maximum RPM that can be safely ridden. While doing this, record AFR with the LC-2 and show the plot.

 

[engineerk9]

Pre detonation or pinging, I believe is what you are referring to.

Pre detonation can be a result of a number of things, including hot spots from carbon buildup. Carbon buildup on our bikes can be more of a problem than on many other lower compression engines. Any carbon buildup takes some of the final compressed chamber volume, which will increase the compression (more heat). It (carbon) also will hold heat, which can ignite the mix early, and that will cause the ping too.

Carbonizing the combustion chamber is only one of my concerns. My bike runs fine lean, I have no drivability issues. I will be adding the dobeck fueler to see if I get more power, and I should get up to 4 hp gain, is my guess. I won't run it 100% of the time, only for fun.

And while the o2 spoof may not "adapt out", the ecu will adapt, and that may be in the form of ignition timing. No empirical data one way or the other on timing. Carbon build (black soot in tailpipe) has been noted with the added fuel.

Is the AFxied a contributing factor? When did the pinging start, before or after its install? If you say after, you know what you have to do, remove it. If pinging was before adding it, I would remove it, take bike to dealer and get the bike fixed, then decide if you need to add it.

But as Quirky said, he was thinking of lowering the compression, and I believe that was after his engine blew up and the PC5 did not fix the issue after the rebuild. There is a company (Cometic) that makes the thicker head gasket for the BMW which will work to lower the compression. Rather affordable ($60) too, since my Husky dealer does not carry the head gasket for the TR650.

Hi Roger, my TR has done nearly 17,000 klms, given that I've never actually done full throttle top gear acceleration runs (except on the dyno) I could not say whether it would have "pinged" before the AF-XIED, up until the Pod-mod, the bike ran well enough
Booster Plug & GPR exhaust, which didn't seem to have been adapted out
The Pod-Mod went well until one very hot Sydney day in traffic the motor went stumbly etc
The "Dealer" was removed from the Husqvarna dealership because of poor service

 

[drzcharlie]

My bike doesn't knock at all, no matter the temperature. I've had the POD mod since around 800 miles or so. It may be that the LC2 settings I am using negate any knock but I also don't remember it knocking prior to that either.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

My bike doesn't knock at all, no matter the temperature. I've had the POD mod since around 800 miles or so. It may be that the LC2 settings I am using negate any knock but I also don't remember it knocking prior to that either.

Maybe with some fuel added to the AF-xied to setting 8, the knock would go away.

Charlie, Can you run the WOT test I described above or are you still socked in with winter?

 

[Roger 04 RT]

BTW, I made the WOT test on my bike, chart below. You can see that in my case the mixture richened nicely as the RPM increased (start of WOT) and then sort of leveled off a bit above 12:1 This is a well behaved fueling. When someone can run the test in the TR650, we'll learn what it does.

 

[drzcharlie]

I can't run it right now Roger. We are getting freezing rain, sleet and snow today and tomorrow. I would be happy do it when the weather and my time frees up though.

 

[engineerk9]

I can't run it right now Roger. We are getting freezing rain, sleet and snow today and tomorrow. I would be happy do it when the weather and my time frees up though.

Cheers Charlie, similarly here 65knot winds, 6 metre swell sea state 8 - very difficult riding conditions (sic) thank fully no snow

 

[Geeza]

Roger, have sent you a log file, did as you wanted, start 2 grand 4th gear WOT held to 6 grand.

Bike has only done 450 k's since LC2 mod so I would expect the ECU is still learning it's trim values.

Hope the data helps.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Geeza, Well done with the log. Looking through it now. Several good WOT accelerations captured. I'll show an interesting plot later but here is what happens:

Bike in 4th Gear
-2000 rpm stead cruise 13.8 AFR

Throttle open to ~80% (limiter installed)
--AFR instantly goes lean to about 16:1 or so for about half a second. I have noticed the TR650 does this more than others I've looked at. It's a leaner longer blip.
--2000 to ~5000 RPM bike accelerates and AFR increases from 13.8 to ~12:1 somewhat evenly, no lean spot
--5000 to 6000 RPM bike continues to accelerate AFR increases from 12:1 to 11:1. ECUs ofter increase richness in this area to cool the exhaust and protect the engine with extra fuel

RB