Making the Dog run as it should

[WayneC]

The BMS-E will disregard the AIT reading where it considers the value implausible and generate a fault code, then use some default value, what range of values are considered valid is a good question. You have a display in the dash so you could use a variable resistor to determine the range of values it will display. The non linear nature of the AIT means you need to use 2 variable resistors in series, one a large value and one a small value to vary at the ends of the range.

If you attempt it you will need a quality multimeter to do voltage/resistance measurements as the low cost ones will load the circuit and give inaccurate readings

 

[kiwiape]

How does one go about ensuring point 1?
ie How does one find out if the bike has the latest firmware and if it does not, how do we obtain it?

Remember that for many of us, there is no MOSS and no dealer support whatsoever!

I cant help with the latest firmware just yet, but can with resetting adaptive learning values which is probably more important and helping you find which ECU version you are on. So if you have an old Win 7 Laptop pm me.

 

[engineerk9]

One of the reasons to have the temperature sensor in the airbox is that you want it to capture the temperature of the air entering the engine, not the temperature of the air entering the intake.

There can be a big difference. For instance, if you're riding along and the actual air temperature is 70F, but you stop in traffic for a minute or two for a red light, the engine often warms the air to 100-110F. You want the sensor measuring that temperature, not actual air temp.

I measured 53degC in the airbox when idling in traffic, our bikes are designed to run lean, surely such a high AIT makes the bike run even leaner, just when a richer mixture would be safer

Most vehicles have the AIT arranged as close to the front of the vehicle as possible so as not be affected by engine heat

There is a pressure sensor built into the ecu, hot AIT combined with the atmospheric pressure would be sending conflicting signal to the ecu

Any AIT "spoofs" get adapted out because of the O2 sensor chasing that 14.7 AFR - now that we understand that the latest firmware goes to Closed Loop at 42degC, "spoofing" the O2 becomes even more important - until someone learns how to re-map the ecu

 

[mag00]

So what I'm hearing is that the ait is only needed to tell the bike when to go open or closed loop.

Then the o2 will over ride anything the ait suggests.

 

[hasenpfeffer]

Nope.

So what I'm hearing is that the ait is only needed to tell the bike when to go open or closed loop.

Then the o2 will over ride anything the ait suggests.

Nope.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

EK9, I've made some comments below that I hope will help clarify things as we wrestle with this complex topic.

I measured 53degC in the airbox when idling in traffic, our bikes are designed to run lean, surely such a high AIT makes the bike run even leaner, just when a richer mixture would be safer Measuring the higher temperature won't make the mixture leaner, the idea is that if the actual air entering the combustion chamber is hotter. Let me digress for a moment.

The purpose of all sensors (TPS, RPM, Barometric & Air Temp) is to estimate how much oxygen will be in the combustion chamber at the moment of ignition. TPS & RPM are the biggest factors but higher barometric pressure or altitude result in more O2 getting packed in. Likewise, lower temperature air is denser and results in more O2 being packed into the combustion chamber. Therefore, Baro & Air are refinements to the TPS/RPM fuel table estimate. (The amount of fuel squirted is considered constant for a given time, except that the injectors turn on more slowly at lower battery voltage, so there is a correction for that.

So when the air in the airbox is 53C, it is less dense and needs less fuel for the same AFR.

Now if you have the sensor in fresh air, the ECU will overestimate the amount of fuel needed and over the next several seconds, the short term trims calculated using the O2 sensor will spot this "error" and reduce the fueling. Although the mixture gets "fixed", the short term trim is now biased to reduce fuel, possibly leading to a lean condition when you get rolling, until the short term trim fixes itself up.

Most vehicles have the AIT arranged as close to the front of the vehicle as possible so as not be affected by engine heat This may be true when one sensor reports ambient air temperature to the display and air temperature to the ECU. However, the more accurately the IAT sensor estimates charge-air-temperature, the more accurately the short term trims are calculated.

There is a pressure sensor built into the ecu, hot AIT combined with the atmospheric pressure would be sending conflicting signal to the ecu As I mentioned above, both pressure and temperature affect the amount of O2 entering the combustion chamber and both are helpful to accurately estimating the amount of fuel required for a given AFR target.

Any AIT "spoofs" get adapted out because of the O2 sensor chasing that 14.7 AFR - now that we understand that the latest firmware goes to Closed Loop at 42degC, "spoofing" the O2 becomes even more important - until someone learns how to re-map the ecu An interesting point, even if you remap the ECU, the Closed Loop software will still bring the fueling to the reference point of the O2 (Lambda sensor).

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Let me offer a couple refinements as we close in on this.

So what I'm hearing is that the ait is only needed to tell the bike when to go open or closed loop. As I mentioned to EK9 above, IAT and Baro sensors refine the TPS/RPM estimate of how much oxygen is in the charge at all times, so therefore the IAT sensor is always used.

The things which govern when the bike is Open or Closed Loop are:
--Engine temperature: the bike stays open loop until the engine is warm enough to run at lambda=1 (14.7:1 for gasoline)
--O2 Sensor status: It takes about a minute for newer O2 sensors to be hot enough to send a valid voltage. The ECU monitors the O2 sensor resistance & voltage to determine when it can be used
--RPM: depending on the ECU, sometimes the bike is open loop above a certain RPM, often quite high now (e.g. 6000 RPM, give or take)
--TPS: above a certain throttle angle (engine load) the ECU goes open loop so that the ECU can add more fuel than the O2 sensor would allow. note though that long term trims are still applied.
--TPS Rate: above a certain rate of TPS rotation, the bike is Open loop for a short time, note that long term trims are still applied

Then the o2 will over ride anything the ait suggests. This is true after the engine conditions are not changing too much. It takes a few seconds for the short term trims to converge on the correct fueling.

 

[kiwiape]

this is getting complicated try reading this about open/closed loop http://www.lambdapower.co.uk/TechNotes/Tech-3.asp

Roger 04 RT have you ever seen our bikes on the MOSS and watched the O2 going from active to inactive and from cold warm up?...very interesting,....basically from a little after start up and at idle or under low acceleration O2 is active, rapid acceleration O2 goes inactive. It remains active at high RPM light load....and the injector goes is 0% on overrun....it really helps you understand what the ECU is doing when your riding

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Kiwape, I've found the GS-911 to be a great tool for mapping when an ECU is open or closed loop. You can ride for a few hours, collecting realtime date, and then scatterplot the RPM/TPS points where open and closed loop occur. For BMW I've mapped the Motronic and BMSK ECUs. Generally speaking the newer the ECU the broader the area of closed loop. WayneC mentioned the Terra has a broad area, which is like the BMSK on newer BMWs. Below is an example of the kind of closed loop area chart you can make with a GS-911--every dot on the chart is an RPM/TPS point where closed loop occurred. Even the Motronic had some closed loop to 36 degrees throttle which is over 40% throttle open. (Notice below the red line there are no closed loop points. This is an area BMW made leaner for deceleration. So being open loop doesn't guarantee that an ECU will be in a rich area.)

It would be very helpful to map the Terra 650, now that the GS-911 is working on it.

 

[Ted Litens]

Hi Ted I'm an Australian Marine Engineer, I'm endeavouring to get my TR running well, many TR & Strada owners suffered similar challenges, in Australia getting Dealers to acknowledge or accept warranty responsibility would cost more $s than recovery
A very few such as Dahlitz (in Canberra) do whatever they can to support us

Hello and thanks for your reply!! I'm pissed off big time with the dealer and how they do their business. Two times before it was suppose to be fixed but it was like they never even testrun it and now the third time they wont even let me testrun it! I've been trying to help them as much as i can with reaserch about the problem and keepingt them informed what i found out but since i don't have the tools required i can't connect and try my self what ever that might be. I bought a wuka boosterplug which was suppose to eliminate the problem and installed the temprature sensor in front but it didn't help at all. Now they said it's running the way it's suppose to and the reason to my problems was the wuka boosterplug which is nothing but bullshit since i installed it after i think more than 5000kilometers and the problem has been since it was brand new!!! It's been under warranty but it's like they can't fix it and only want the money! I tried the wuka plug but it didn't help but what they did except reset the ECU i have no idea! I read something about a bigger fuelinjector and i've been thinking if it might be running better with another type of sparkplug but i don't know yet. I'm now taking it to court it looks like to settle this cause i can't drive it like this. I concider it dangerous to drive when i don't know when it will hichup or stop for me. And in Manila or in any other town in Philippines when the traffic is very heavy and most drivers don't know how to drive literally i don't want to be hit from behind when it suddely without notice just stops. I've been working for years with all kind of marine engines and i think i know quit well how an engine should run and the way my motorcycle engine is running i can't accept even the manager said it's this motorcycle caracteristics!!! Thanks again and feel free to reply if you have something to add which might help me get the money back cause i'm not taking it back after this! I would appreciate it! Haaaaave a nice weekend!

Ted

 

[Ted Litens]

Mine use to run like yours (very bad when cold) ....I put the Plustars in and now (when cold) its 95% better...it just splutter a little bit and and I have slight miss on/off throttle sometimes...did 430 yesterday open road and slow bush track, it missed three times over the whole day....no big deal. I believe when I put the bigger injector in it will be 99.9% , but for now it is ok and not really a problem, when it was a REAL problem before. It also pulls much better with the Pulstars.

Do you know what ECU map your bike is on...? Get the print out from your dealer and let me know.
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/random-stall-–-a-silver-bullett-or-as-close-as-we-may-get-tr650-husky.80593/#post-539119

Hello and thanks for your reply. No i don't know what ECU map my bike is on and i'm not sure i'm going to get anything else from the dealer since they are pissed of with me after i refuse to pay my monthly obligations before they manage to fix the problem once and for all. That will never happen cause after they said it now runs perfect after their third attempt to fix the engineproblem but they would not let me tesrun it before i pay that is the same as they are hiding something from me and 100% the problem remains. Well they are not even close to as pissed of as i am so me and my wife now decided to take it to court and return the motor and get most of my money back and buy something else i can enjoy without this major problem which might lead to a serious accident in traffic like in Manila if it stops without any notice what so ever. Last time i drove it i drove 1000kilometers back and forth from Manila to Donsol and it hichup for me like +100times during the 13hour drive to Donsol and +100times back to Manila! It drives me insane and i was about to throw the motorcycle in the nearest river or something when i came back to Manila! I took it straight back to the workshop in Manila and left it there for 10weeks and when i came back to Philippines to testrun it they didn't let me. I bought a wuka plug to try after i read it will eliminate all the problems but it didn't help at all. I read something about bigger injection valve and i've been thinking if a different sparkplug might improve the running of the engine but i don't know yet. What the workshop in Manila did except reset the ECU i have no idea but i don't think they testrun it after since it was exactly the same when i came to pick ity up the two previous times they tried to fix it for me. Thanks again for your reply and if you have something to add please do!

Haaaaaaaave a nice weekend!

Ted

 

[WayneC]

The MOSS system is not good at real time values and sitting in the workshop is not a good representation of the behaviour

The manner in which I had to connect/mount the GS911 WiFi to get preliminary real time values from a Terra is not the way I am comfortable with the connection due to the lack of under seat space, the way the wiring harness is wrapped and where we had the GS911 mounted, a physically smaller battery is needed to clear space and the harness rewrapped to give a little more free length in the wiring to the socket

To put the changes in open/closed loop operation of the programmable ECU's over the years into perspective it is worth looking at the data I have from my single spark 650GS, a later 2009 dual spark G650GS which was ridden with a PC in a tank bag and then the Terra results we obtained

On mine and the 2009 the BMSC/BMSCII drops to open loop as soon as the throttle is opened significantly (the 2009 a little less so perhaps) and you see no turning off of the injector, the interesting part on my single spark is the fact that it does run closed loop on high RPM and constant throttle where BMW suggested in the old GT1 Dealer Software that it was only active below 4500 RPM.

The Terra with the latest firmware stays in closed loop with quite considerable throttle changes although we need better data to really see it. The earlier Terra firmware, who knows, all I can say is the Terra here with the early firmware did not perform well based on the owner's description of behaviour and his description of behaviour after the firmware change to the latest version.

It appears to me that it is in the move from EU3 to EU5 emissions compliance that the increased use of closed loop came about. This change occurred only in the 2010+ G650GS models and they claimed the header pipe and 02 sensor were changed in production yet last time we checked we could find no revised part numbers and they released a firmware update for earlier G650GS to make the ECE variant EU5 compliant. Some sleight of hand there I suspect

It is hard to compare the earlier Bosch ECU's particularly the MA 2.2 and 2.4 non programmable ECU's plus I see no differentiation between BMSK, BMSKP and BMSKP2 behaviour on the big twins and F800's.

 

[Mark_H]

Ok here is an interesting look at the stumble factor.

A 2014 Strada with 3350 km on the clock and a very good fully charged battery, possibly the worst case of a stumbling bike I have ever seen.
This is the standard bike, right after an ECU Reset, warmed up to normal temperature with fan in/out twice, but nothing seems to make any difference to this engine.

Nothing seems to help, Hot or Cold, 3 min warm up or not, fitted with Wuka or not, Dyna-Boost on or off, whatever I do this bike is a full time stumbler.

Riding it is a bit of a nightmare, it is on normal 16/47 gearing so in traffic the clutch has to be slipped to keep it above 2500 rpm or it dies randomly and quite often.

I just cannot get my head round the theory that it is throttle body wall fuel wetting issues and all that goes with it, this bike is terrible to ride and will not run properly between 1700 and 2300 rpm whatever I do.
The stumble is a constant flat spot and misfire between those revs and can only be the fuel map. Everything else is standard and the bike has been like this from new, so I am confident it is not plugs or other issues.

If this was a car or any other bike it would have gone back to the dealer, but now it is too late, cos they do not have the means to fix it.

Cheers, MH

 

[WayneC]

What method did you use to do the BMS-E reset and which firmware version is it ?

 

[Ted Litens]

Ok here is an interesting look at the stumble factor.

A 2014 Strada with 3350 km on the clock and a very good fully charged battery, possibly the worst case of a stumbling bike I have ever seen.
This is the standard bike, right after an ECU Reset, warmed up to normal temperature with fan in/out twice, but nothing seems to make any difference to this engine.

Nothing seems to help, Hot or Cold, 3 min warm up or not, fitted with Wuka or not, Dyna-Boost on or off, whatever I do this bike is a full time stumbler.

Riding it is a bit of a nightmare, it is on normal 16/47 gearing so in traffic the clutch has to be slipped to keep it above 2500 rpm or it dies randomly and quite often.

I just cannot get my head round the theory that it is throttle body wall fuel wetting issues and all that goes with it, this bike is terrible to ride and will not run properly between 1700 and 2300 rpm whatever I do.
The stumble is a constant flat spot and misfire between those revs and can only be the fuel map. Everything else is standard and the bike has been like this from new, so I am confident it is not plugs or other issues.

If this was a car or any other bike it would have gone back to the dealer, but now it is too late, cos they do not have the means to fix it.

Cheers, MH

Thanks a lot for that Mark!!! Really appreciate it!!! I will fight the dealer to the bitter end until they give me back most of the money i paid for mine!!!

 

[engineerk9]

What method did you use to do the BMS-E reset and which firmware version is it ?

Wayne you ask the correct questions - however with either an ignorant or incompetent dealer guys like Mark H have no way of giving you the answer

 

[Mark_H]

Wayne you ask the correct questions - however with either an ignorant or incompetent dealer guys like Mark H have no way of giving you the answer

How about - NO DEALER !!

 

[isldtime]

How about - NO DEALER !!

Or like the big time dealer I got mine from. Might as well talk to a box of rocks!

 

[drzcharlie]

Warning Rant follows:

I want to warn everyone because I have made some trusted friends and met some great home mechanics in this forum. I can honestly say I have learned a lot from most of them. But........

What continues to amaze me about this debate is ALL of us had a chance to do our homework before we bought this bike. If you were thorough (and I was) you knew they were discontinued. Even in 2013 the industry was humming about the sale of Husky. True nobody expected the lack of accountability but what were we going to do? I sure as hell wasn't going to park the bike and let it gather dust until KTM fixed it. A fair number of posts from just a few individuals continue to keep the controversy alive as it should be. But, there is a ton of good advice here and on ADV to make peace with the bike and make it a great workhorse.

Use this information to your advantage. If you continue to ride it without mods then it's your fault the bike runs like crap at this point. It will run like crap unless you adapt or KTM takes responsibility. For now you know you have to adapt or continue to ride it with stalls and stumbles. Your other choice is to sell it but some (like me) had to finance the bike and can't sell yet. I adapted, I learned and I enjoy the bike.

Get the heck over it and choose an option and keep the whining to a minimum or fix the farking thing so it runs in an acceptable manner. There a few options that make the bike spirited and quite useable. Pick one.

End of rant.

 

[isldtime]

Warning Rant follows:

I want to warn everyone because I have made some trusted friends and met some great home mechanics in this forum. I can honestly say I have learned a lot from most of them. But........

What continues to amaze me about this debate is ALL of us had a chance to do our homework before we bought this bike. If you were thorough (and I was) you knew they were discontinued. Even in 2013 the industry was humming about the sale of Husky. True nobody expected the lack of accountability but what were we going to do? I sure as hell wasn't going to park the bike and let it gather dust until KTM fixed it. A fair number of posts from just a few individuals continue to keep the controversy alive as it should be. But, there is a ton of good advice here and on ADV to make peace with the bike and make it a great workhorse.

Use this information to your advantage. If you continue to ride it without mods then it's your fault the bike runs like crap at this point. It will run like crap unless you adapt or KTM takes responsibility. For now you know you have to adapt or continue to ride it with stalls and stumbles. Your other choice is to sell it but some (like me) had to finance the bike and can't sell yet. I adapted, I learned and I enjoy the bike.

Get the heck over it and choose an option and keep the whining to a minimum or fix the farking thing so it runs in an acceptable manner. There a few options that make the bike spirited and quite useable. Pick one.

End of rant.

I came in knowing about the sale but also liked the reviews. I knew my selling dealer did not know the difference between shit and shiniola when I asked about the Moss tool.
The part I worry about now is part support(electronics).
Thanks to you and Roger for solving fueling issues.
I'm lucky, mine runs no worse than the last two FI bikes I have owned thanks to emission regulations .
I know I can make it better but ask Huskynoobee, It ain't no lay down POS!!