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Hi everyone,
As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.
When he passed, I worked with his kids to gather the necessary credentials to keep this site running. Since then (and for however long they worked with Coffee), Woodschick and Dirtdame have been maintaining the site and covering the costs. Without their hard work and financial support, CafeHusky would have been lost.
Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.
Unfortunately, the new software version doesn’t support importing the old site’s styles, so for now, you’ll see the XenForo default style. This may change over time.
Coffee didn’t document the work he did on the site, so I’ve been digging through the old setup to understand how everything was running. There may still be things I’ve missed. One known issue is that email functionality is not yet working on the new site, but I hope to resolve this over time.
Thanks for your patience and support!
Random Stall – a Silver Bullett or as close as we may get. TR650 Husky
- Thread starter kiwiape
- Start date
engineerk9
Husqvarna
AA Class
WayneC please clarify for this post why moving the AIT is wrong?
Certainly from my perspective the Dyna Boost appears to have improved things significantly
The AIT is supposed to monitor the temperature of the air actually entering the engine not the air temperature elsewhere around the machine which may be hotter or colder than the air in the air box as it enters the engine
With the AIT mounted external to the air box it is not possible to do an adaption reset and build a valid adaption table because the air temperature values do not reflect the temperatures inside the air box as it idles building an adaption table
There are other factors as well such as circuit loading with what you have done which are another story entirely
As for the DynoBoost, take a look at the claims
"Gain 15% additional horsepower, 15% torque combined with explosive acceleration."
Then when you read the specs it claims that it is increasing fuel to the engine and at the same time claiming a 6% improvement in fuel economy
Believing that is around the same as believing in pixies at the bottom of the garden, a glance at the specs and claims on other products they sell is enough to know to take any claims with a very large grain of salt
There is simply insufficIent information provided by DynoBoost to make rational decisions and the product provides no ability to look at or monitor the actual air temperature or O2 signal values
All of these snake oil products are based on the false assumption that all problems in the OEM ECU's are due to a leaner than optimum mixture where the problems may be either richer or leaner in different situations or even simply poor combustion due to ignition circuit problems. It is not a one size fits all situation and different firmware versions in an OEM ECU may well behave quite differently
A good example is the random stall, that is a problem of the ECU turning off the injector during over run too aggressively and it is a routine external to any mapping table so richening the mixture across the board is not going to do anything of any real benefit to resolve the problem
Other test results show what was presumably the earlier versions firmware on the rich side causing problems
Coupling the AIT with the DynaBoost together means any real time values for either AIT or O2 from diagnostics are meaningless
With the AIT mounted external to the air box it is not possible to do an adaption reset and build a valid adaption table because the air temperature values do not reflect the temperatures inside the air box as it idles building an adaption table
There are other factors as well such as circuit loading with what you have done which are another story entirely
As for the DynoBoost, take a look at the claims
"Gain 15% additional horsepower, 15% torque combined with explosive acceleration."
Then when you read the specs it claims that it is increasing fuel to the engine and at the same time claiming a 6% improvement in fuel economy
Believing that is around the same as believing in pixies at the bottom of the garden, a glance at the specs and claims on other products they sell is enough to know to take any claims with a very large grain of salt
There is simply insufficIent information provided by DynoBoost to make rational decisions and the product provides no ability to look at or monitor the actual air temperature or O2 signal values
All of these snake oil products are based on the false assumption that all problems in the OEM ECU's are due to a leaner than optimum mixture where the problems may be either richer or leaner in different situations or even simply poor combustion due to ignition circuit problems. It is not a one size fits all situation and different firmware versions in an OEM ECU may well behave quite differently
A good example is the random stall, that is a problem of the ECU turning off the injector during over run too aggressively and it is a routine external to any mapping table so richening the mixture across the board is not going to do anything of any real benefit to resolve the problem
Other test results show what was presumably the earlier versions firmware on the rich side causing problems
Coupling the AIT with the DynaBoost together means any real time values for either AIT or O2 from diagnostics are meaningless
Roger 04 RT
Husqvarna
AA Class
WayneC, Well said on the Dynaboost.
Richening the Closed Loop mixture via Lambda-shifting could affect the stalling issue by creating just a bit more fuel post-overrun fuel cutoff, making it more likely that the engine "restarts". While not necessarily elegant it might be effective.
Richening the Closed Loop mixture via Lambda-shifting could affect the stalling issue by creating just a bit more fuel post-overrun fuel cutoff, making it more likely that the engine "restarts". While not necessarily elegant it might be effective.
engineerk9
Husqvarna
AA Class
One of the challenges with the AIT in the airbox directly over the motor, was that in Sydney traffic the airbox temp was in excess of 53degC, thereby leaning the fuel mixture, making the bike virtually un-rideable & certainly unsafe, by positioning the AIT to the front of the bike, ensures that that situation cannot occur, all other times the airflow over the new AIT location & in the airbox are virtually the same
From my experience, the Dyna boost has certainly improved the running of the bike - I'd never make any excessive claims, as I don't have dyno figures
I'm still achieving 25klms/litre -my bike is running better than it ever has, accelerates cleanly from 1,600 rpm & "pops" occasionally on the over-run, wheelies with little effort, no stalls etc etc - so I'm happy
Roger 04 RT
Husqvarna
AA Class
6-8% mixture richening by lambda-shifting seems to reduce popping on deceleration before Overrun Fuel Cutoff (OFC) kicks in because the mixture isn't so lean during initial decal that you get lean misfire and then popping. Once in OFC, the injectors are shut off in either case so no popping. During the moment of fuel restoration, a little bit of extra fuel helped on TRZ_Charlie's bike. The elderly are safe.
(You are correct that a coding change to the ECU might stop the stalling issue but you are also correct that we can't make those changes without resorting to something like a MegaSquirt.)
To solve the mystery of what the Dynoboost does, someone who installed one could add a Wideband O2 like the LC-2 ahead of the cat and make some riding logs of AFR, then we'd have some science.
WayneC's exact point is that you want the IAT sensor in the spot that measures the exact (hot) temperature of the air in Sydney traffic so that the ECU calculates the fuel required correctly. If the air in the box is very hot, and the IAT reads it right, you get the correct mixture, not a lean one as you postulate.
WayneC's further point that the Mixture Adaptives don't get built correctly with the IAT sensor moved, is also correct.
I saw the same problem when I got stuck in construction traffic going through Rocky Mountain National park. The air temp was about 55f and the dash was reading 102f. It ran terrible until my dash temp lowered which took way longer than expected. I am sure my problem was caused by the pod mod. The iat sensor sits right behind the pod mod blocking it from clean airflow. I would like to keep my iat sensor in the air box but move in up in front of the pod filter.
johnsweet
Husqvarna
AA Class
I just got off the phone with the U.S. DOT National Traffic Safety Administration (1-888-327-4236) they issued me tracking # 10825606. I tried to file another complaint but no so I asked for a supervisor. He came back and said that he was instructed to forward my complaints to the technical staff for review. I also told him about the recalls in Canada and Australia. So if there tech staff calls me can someone on this forum confirm that with an updated ECU from numbers 8543015 or 8543016 changed to 8532185 the random stall is eliminated. This will change the air fuel mixture to richer and will stop the random stall? Who should do this KTM? BMW? or Husqvarna? I also tried to contact Tyson Tyler at KTM NA
PaulC
F class
HI John, there is presently no recall happening in Australia and is not likely occur. There was only three complaints to the department.
The good news is I had my terra at PFG yesterday, (the ex-importer) It had two issues, 1 ECU firmware, updating from 8532184 to 8543015 and 2 The o2 sensor was fouled causing an error (by soot? caused by BP?)
but somehow cleared during the process.
WayneC mentioned the o2 connector has caused errors on some GS's, and I tend to agree with him. Try some contact cleaner or metho on the connection, ensuring that your ignition is turned off.
If there is no joy stay on the case.
For Aussie TR owners with the stalling prob. My local dealership didn't have updated firmware.
It might be worth phoning PFG and asking "who has got what and where". Speak to Vic.
John, you have the version numbers back to front, it is as per the sequence below
8535136 or 8532184 is upgraded to 8543015 - ECE
8535137 or 8532185 is upgraded to 8543016 - US
Yes the update resolves the majority of the problems experienced with the Terra, 8543015/16 versions are pretty much a complete rewrite
Mark_H
Husqvarna
AA Class
Re
Fitting a Dyna-Boost also worked very well for me and at least 25 others I know of here in Philippines.
Fitting of bigger 124 injector also worked very well.
In fact all three mods appear to compliment each other on several bikes and we are happy owners of non stalling TR650 s
Relocation of the Ait sensor worked ok for me.
Fitting a Dyna-Boost also worked very well for me and at least 25 others I know of here in Philippines.
Fitting of bigger 124 injector also worked very well.
In fact all three mods appear to compliment each other on several bikes and we are happy owners of non stalling TR650 s
johnsweet
Husqvarna
AA Class
Thanks to Paul C, Wayne C, and Mark H for your insight. So what your saying is if I can find a US East coast dealer with an OSS tool computer able to install or upgrade my ECU firmware to # 8543016 I'm good to go? Any dealers out there close to Maine able to do this? Or do I need to remove the ECU and ship it to Husqvarna NA in California? Or KTM in Ohio? Or can a BMW shop do the firmware rewrite?
Any BMW Dealer should be able to do the update, it seems there are administrative reasons for them not wanting to do the work, Mag00 posted here at CH that a Husky Dealer explained to him that in the US a Husky Dealer is supposed to authorize a BMW Dealer to do the update
As to fitting snake oil solutions like DynoBoost or relocating AIT to overcome firmware problems, at best it may mask some problems but it is not a long term solution. These type of devices have been tried before with the earlier Rotax BMW models and were not worthwhile long term. With the Terra, the last firmware version is a major rewrite of the firmware
The other aspect is that adaption resets are important when ever changing components like AIT/AIC/O2/Exhausts/Changing air filter type etc. There is long experience with other models which those owners have learned with these modern programmable processor ECU's.
PaulC
F class
The BMW Dealer sounds like a plan. Avoid sending the ECU anywhere, From what I have seen, the system (the bike) needs to be done as a whole. Be sure to ask for a Operations Report.
drzcharlie
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I asked for help from my dealer Gateway BMW in St. Louis last Wednesday. He was a Husqvarna dealer prior to the breakup. He said he has no influence regarding getting authorization for the upgraded software.
He stated that it isn't a question of doing it and that he could load the software but it was question of the legality of doing it. He added without the official authorization he isn't covered in case of any liability arising from the new software bricking the ECU or the newly flashed ECU failing and causing severe injuries or death...wtf? Isn't this what we are trying to avoid in the first place?
This seems odd since he was a Husky dealer and remains a BMW dealer. What a freakin runaround. I can honestly say that I am happy with my bike after the installation of the LC2 but that isn't the point.
He stated that it isn't a question of doing it and that he could load the software but it was question of the legality of doing it. He added without the official authorization he isn't covered in case of any liability arising from the new software bricking the ECU or the newly flashed ECU failing and causing severe injuries or death...wtf? Isn't this what we are trying to avoid in the first place?
This seems odd since he was a Husky dealer and remains a BMW dealer. What a freakin runaround. I can honestly say that I am happy with my bike after the installation of the LC2 but that isn't the point.
isldtime
Husqvarna
AA Class
Well, I guess I'll mark the St. Louis dealer off my list of hopefuls. For now at least.