The Italian Red Head that's going to lose it's head thread.

[Quirky]

So we need to divert the aircraft strikes from Iraq and sort California out then?

I remember someone suggesting the fuel mapping was different in Oz from the states.

Cheers,

Q

 

[Baddrapp]

Yep. Wait till November and I will be gone. You know it's bad when all the business's and manufacturers are leaving the state for one that is not so constrictive. Our automotive paint jobs cost twice as much because of CARB- California Air Resource Board.

 

[V8Astro]

View attachment 44897 View attachment 44896

So if we have people that are able to read plugs then surely there's a few guru's who can decipher this whole story?
What does all this tell you?
Does this look like a lean running engine?
I am still being told that it's still likely to be all the Air filter modifications fault.

I don't know stuff all about engines, but the way those marks are would it not be possible that the head gasket failure has caused this pre-detonation issue. If it wasn't related wouldn't there be scouring in other places, I dunno?

Cheers,

Q

That piston is in fact...STUFFED. It also looks painfully lean...this has been said but it's amazing to see the proof. The erosion/pitting in the piston was caused by the irregular and HOT flame front of the pre-ignition. What you're seeing is where the metal has been "blasted away" almost like 1000 little cutting torches nipping away at the aluminum. Then this turns into a snow-ball effect. All those dimple have points and ridges that get hot and further compount the pre-ignition.

You can also see where the flame front has erroded the edge of the cylinder and stopped where the head gasket "fire ring" was. Usually that part is made of high quality stainless steel.

I would be interesting to see the bore of the cylinder. Since the pre-ignition was localized to that spot I suspect there would also be perpendicular chatter marks on the bore where it was hammering the piston skirt like a wedge.

 

[Motosportz]

As for the coolant issue...both my Aprilia and Husky SMR510 originlly came with silica coolant. Pure shite. The silica ends up leaving deposits everywhere and turning acidic very quick. On the Aprilia is actually starting etching the engine cases

I would suggest getting that stuff out ASAP and using Engine Ice or some regular Prestone ethylene glycol based coolant

I would suggest going one step further and getting the ZipTy XF waterless coolant. I tried some and now want it in every bike I have. Never boils, never causes pressure, lubes the water pump, will not corrode parts, works fantastic. I have a 250 husky and YZ450F yamaha both that used water, the YZ450 uses a lot when asked to deal with tight technical terrain. The 250 husky probably needed a new cap but instead I put XF in it. Never have to add a drop now, never spews, works great. Was not really on my radar but after using it I am sold. Great stuff.

 

[Baddrapp]

I just installed the EJK and I just rented one of their AFR guage from their website, SAFRtool.com. I will soon see what is going on in the chamber.

 

[mag00]

That piston is in fact...STUFFED. It also looks painfully lean...this has been said but it's amazing to see the proof. The erosion/pitting in the piston was caused by the irregular and HOT flame front of the pre-ignition. What you're seeing is where the metal has been "blasted away" almost like 1000 little cutting torches nipping away at the aluminum. Then this turns into a snow-ball effect. All those dimple have points and ridges that get hot and further compount the pre-ignition.

You can also see where the flame front has erroded the edge of the cylinder and stopped where the head gasket "fire ring" was. Usually that part is made of high quality stainless steel.

I would be interesting to see the bore of the cylinder. Since the pre-ignition was localized to that spot I suspect there would also be perpendicular chatter marks on the bore where it was hammering the piston skirt like a wedge.

It would be interesting to see the bore.


I do not think it is lean. If it is, then two other schools of thought have to be examined.
One that the pod mod did cause it.
Two, that the AFxied caused it.

I'm keeping my pod mod...

My dyno runs show fat in the rpm range that Quirky was pinging/slapping.
Charlies MPG indicates fat also.

I have to fall back onto the problem that is not as easy to blame. I say the bad head gasket is causing the problems, not the other way around. The damage on the surface of the block, looks more like corrosion. Dissimilar metal corrosion, aluminum and head gasket metal crimp.

 

[Quirky]

Well mag00, I really don't know.

Ultimately I hope it was a dodgy gasket at the very start. If it wasn't I'd like to think that the TPS not being reset by the dealer actually caused the detonation damage from a lean running engine. When the AF-Xied was fitted this helped reduce the pinging and easily may have been fitted after the damage was already done. Hell for all we know the AF-Xied may have helped get this poor engine past the 5000km service that found the TPS issue.

No other pod filter bikes are blowing up.
The AF-Xied moved everything in a positive direction.
Having TPS reset had an enormous positive effect.

But at this point for piece of mind I am leaning towards setting this bike up with a Power Commander and Auto Tune.

Cheers,

Q

 

[Quirky]

Currently I am chasing up some Power Commander information and options from a guru or two.
This has also prompted the consideration of reducing the compression ratio. Is it even possible or worth while?

12.3:1 compression ratio is crazy for an adventure type bike, how do get back to under say 11.5:1?

 

[glitch_oz]

12.3:1 compression ratio is crazy for an adventure type bike, how do get back to under say 11.5:1?

I'm asking myself how hard it'd be to plonk in a tried and proven G650 donk instead....and how much of the associated hardware could be used/ rigged/ modded to
make it fit and work. This could well become a viable alternative to endless fiddling and farting around and the cost of repairs/ non-available parts etc.
It's bound to happen sometime down the line...

Any more news from PFG (importer) re: warranty claim etc?

 

[Baddrapp]

I would check the stock bmw piston. It should lower the compression and alleviate the pre-ignition problem.

 

[Quirky]

Nope no news.
You could be right glitch, those extra 10 ponies in there need looking after really well.
Thinking of maybe just getting it all back together. Tart it up. Sell it and find a decent bike like a trusty DR650SE.
These things just aren't ever going to hold together for my uses and intended purpose.
12.3:1 compression ratio isn't the ideal thing for some of the more adventurous trips I would like to do.

 

[glitch_oz]

Nope no news.
You could be right glitch, those extra 10 ponies in there need looking after really well.
Thinking of maybe just getting it all back together. Tart it up. Sell it and find a decent bike like a DRZ400.
These things just aren't ever going to hold together for my uses and intended purpose.
12.3:1 compression ratio isn't the ideal thing for some of the more adventurous trips I would like to do.

After a run like yours, I'd be thinking the same.
Nothing beats "Old-Tech" out in the rough stuff....that's been proven often enough.
Why BMW/Husky decided to tickle a proven product to squeeze another few HP out of it...no idea.
It wouldn't be an issue with a twin/ multi, but a single in the 100hp/ 1000cc range has already cost KTM (and others) a lot of headaches (and warranty-claims).

While some might call the Drizzer boring, old or whatever...there's just no way around it when it comes to tough and reliable.

While the TR is more than enough for me....if mine turns out like yours, I'll start thinking about some changes.

Keep us updated with what PFG comes up with...to me, there's a lot riding on how this turns out.

 

[Quirky]

Fair enough Glitch, I'm not throwing in the towel... yet, I will keep ya's informed. Right now it's all about waiting on parts, it seems KTM have stashed them away somewhere very special and well hidden.
My dealer's mechanic and PFG are still maintaining that the modified air filter, caused a lean running engine, detonation then causing the head gasket failure and that the warranty has only been granted because it is possible there was a fault in the beginning. Also told that I should consider myself lucky they're covering the job this one time.

I currently have no reason to have any faith in my dealers mechanic, he overlooked doing the TPS setup on delivery, didn't find that error on the first service after I asked them to update the ecu and he couldn't even properly diagnose the f!@#ing problem before pulling the head.
I have been told by a few engine builders it appears by the 2 pictures I have that the damage is simply water errosion and that a detonation problem would be easily seen further across the top cylinder surface. I've had a decent conversation with a bloke about my dyno tuning and testing options to resurrect this bike as PFG has suggested. After some research he did some research suggestion was that a 12.3:1 ratio is a crazy high number for a big single and that only 98 or race fuel should be used, which had me asking well how the bloody hell do I go when OPAL is the only choice when you get out in the bush, does it even rate 91?

It certainly has been an interesting journey learning about this machine.

 

[Thumpa]

When piss poor low grade fuel was the standard currency in third world countries, possibly still is. Overlanders lowered their compression using a heavier base gasket, may be a consideration. I tend to agree with you Quirky, too high a compression for the bikes intended purpose really. Sorry to hear their giving you the run around.

 

[DeLewis]

I just checked out the compression on the KTM 690 Enduro R for comparison - 12.6:1! These numbers are very high and certainly the KTM 690s seem to be giving their owners plenty of issues that you'd expect of a high performance engine. However, there seem to be plenty of TRs with reasonably high mileage that have been performing reliably.

Completely appreciate you considering alternatives like the DRs for reliability. I had a DRZ400 more than a decade ago and did some heavy duty on/off road touring on it. It was exceptionally reliable and fun. I would sooner go for one of these than the DR650 - about the same power, less weight, quite nimble, etc. Anyway, just a thought.

 

[27rich]

Your right glitch its hard to pass up on old tech thats tried and tested. But the old DR is just such a boring bike. Dont get me wrong its a good bike, just so boring.

and why did they squeeze more power out of it. Power sells. otherwise you'd probably buy a DR or KLR.

 

[27rich]

This high compression does make me wonder though as I did notice a slight knock on hard acceleration while running 91 fuel whilst in the outback. And im the same I bought this bike for big outback trips where 91 is all you can get. But as stated before what other bike options are there if the 690 is running a higher compression and as DeLewis said there also having engine problems. And I for one just can't bring myself to by a DR.

DeLewis
out of interest what problems are they having

 

[glitch_oz]

But the old DR is just such a boring bike. Dont get me wrong its a good bike, just so boring.

and why did they squeeze more power out of it. Power sells. otherwise you'd probably buy a DR or KLR.

The DRZ400 was the bike mentioned by Quirky, I think.
Of course power sells....nothing wrong with that either. But the issue was reliability in the back of WoopWoop.
And somehow those 2 points don't seem to gel all that well (unless there's a service truck and Dakar crew at hand and $$ are no object).

 

[DeLewis]

This high compression does make me wonder though as I did notice a slighmgear2003t knock on hard acceleration while running 91 fuel whilst in the outback. And im the same I bought this bike for big outback trips where 91 is all you can get. But as stated before what other bike options are there if the 690 is running a higher compression and as DeLewis said there also having engine problems. And I for one just can't bring myself to by a DR.

DeLewis
out of interest what problems are they having

Hi Rich,

I happened to mention recently on another forum (ADV) that if I could have afforded it I would probably have bought the KTM 690. I think it was Glitch who pointed out that they have their fair share of issues to, so I checked it out. Now I'm sure there's no bl##dy way I would get the 690:
1. Rocker bearings wear very rapidly with potential for catastrophic failure. Many owners are replacing them every 10k (km) service.
2. Leaking airbox (sound familiar?)
3. Fuelling issue causing stalling, snatchy throttle response, etc
4. Notoriously delicate fuel pump prone to failure.
5. Tank bolts prone to failure
6. Exhaust gas melting left indicator (US variant)
7. Excessive vibration causing mirrors to break off, wires to fatigue, etc.

And there's a whole lot more. KTM clearly make great performing and often great looking bikes with high quality components (sometimes). But they also suffer from stupid design flaws and reliability issues at least partly due to their high output. KTM owners understandably get enthralled by all the good things about them and are prepared to accept their obvious failings. I too had a KTM640, it cracked its head at about 25k, shook so bad you had to clench your jaw to see straight at particular rev ranges, etc, etc. loved the bike when it was going but wouldn't touch another until KTM can improve their reliability/durability.

Incidentally, Colebatch who is well known on ADV and must be one of the most experienced RTW tourers has deliberately chosen a heavily modified BMW G650X as his ultimate hard core adventure bike. Same engine as ours with slightly less power.

Sorry if I have digressed from the purpose of this thread. Just thought it may assist with putting 'our' TR issues in perspective.

 

[Quirky]

My fault, I edited the bike from a drz400 to a dr650 for those very reasons you just mentioned Glitch. The 400 is better in every way. But it's only the big lazy singles that truly suit. Tenere, KLR, DR and I wonder now maybe what the specs are of KTM's old 640.

For all the reasons you've mentioned 27rich is why I have a TR. I'm just learning now about how and why these other slow poke thumper bikes still exist, why they haven't been hotted up and why they will continue to be produced.

So a G650GS top end ey?
Hmmmmm...

Thumpa, I am considering the base gasket options for sure, but doing so would change the valve timing. A g650 piston has a chance.