2011 TE449 Running well with factory EFI system - finally

[Motosportz]

Kelly,

Most EFI bikes do not have 46mm huge throttle bodies. That is HUGE for a 470cc motor that makes a whopping 40hp. My old aircooled xr600r was 644cc revved only to 10k rpm, and made 55 to the wheels with a 41mm carb.

It is a non issue. But if you whack the throttle open when putting along in 2nd gear idle, lets say to jump a speed bump or takeoff, it will cough/pop like a flameout. If you slowly open the throttle it will pickup to 3krpm fast and you will NEVER notice the issue. Now with a quick turn throttle it happens more often. It is there. And no amount of fuel seems to fix it to the point where I have soot on the tip of the fmf. I have a open airfilter so that is likely making it noticeable.

THAT SAID, WHO THE HELL IDLES IN SECOND GEAR AND RAPES THE THROTTLE OPEN WITHOUT USING THE CLUTCH OR ANYTHING? NOBODY!

BUT, I think it merits more investigation and I really think I understand why when engineering the bike they thought it to be "necessary".

Sounds good, don't remove it.

 

[Thrasher]

I don't know man, I've "whacked" the throttle at every engine speed without ANY issues. Flameouts are GONE! (with butterfly removed). I guess it's just going to depend on the bike.

 

[Mr Ford40]

Cheers for that will try tonight.

 

[Yurii]

Thanks to everyone! Take care!

 

[9880sts]

I don't know man, I've "whacked" the throttle at every engine speed without ANY issues. Flameouts are GONE! (with butterfly removed). I guess it's just going to depend on the bike.

same my bike .. no flame outs ..

 

[Dangermouse449]

Known issue with butterfly mod, at least between Kelly and I. Plenty of Whacking the other day, at least the throttle that is. Sudden pulse of the butterfly open creates an extreme lean condition causing a flame out and stall. I'm on the phone to Italy at the moment, but I will see if I can upload a screen shot or my latest map in a bit.

Tinken, it isn't a 'known issue' UNLESS you have a huge free flowing exhaust & as in your case, drastically changed air flow through your cly head. If you are indeed making the 71 hp you claim, that is about a 40% increase by my reckoning, of course you will need more fuel & air! Please don't make statements like this that relate to this type of bike.
For the rest of us mortals with near standard bikes, the mod is fine.

As mentioned in the posts above, nobody snaps a throttle from idle to full throttle!
Don't do the mod if don't want to. Very simple.
Last time I saw, 19 people have tried it on engines that aren't opened up & reported better power delivery! If, as you suggest, the mods don't work, why are they voting it did? Seriously.

As for the possibility of a backfire maybe once a day, or every third ride, if I crack the throttle too hard, I'll take those odds!!!
It is better than the extremely substandard factory effort that Husqvarna delivered with the bike flaming out every third time you use the throttle! IT IS FAULTY.


As for fixing your own backfire on your bike, surely you are clever enough to do that yourself with the PCV, there are plenty of settings in there.

If a 46mm butterfly is to big for a modern bike efi system, how did the exact same engine from the exact same company with bigger cams & more compression cope with a single butterfly??? Very well actually, it made another 4 engine HP.

I am done too. Sorry for attempting to help people out.

 

[Mr Ford40]

No issues with my bike had it running pretty hot last sunday ,racing around a 600mtr track first and second gear maybe 3rd for a few seconds, on and off the throttle hard, in and out of tight corners. well out of the corners f.........cking awesome ,front wheel up and a slight twisted bike just pulling like a devoit at a 2 dollar peep show and not a problem. I JUST LOVE THE BIKE .

 

[Mr Ford40]

Love the No Toil filer oil.
Best invention ever![/quot

Going to try some of this oil , ordered some today of e-bay . Normally use BELRAY filter oil.

 

[Dangermouse449]

Good stuff.
Just have to get all the oil out of the filter first, wash several times etc, then use it.
Much easier & I had the misfortune of drowning my bike, no toil stayed put & did it's job for the rest of the day.

 

[Dangermouse449]

No issues with my bike had it running pretty hot last sunday ,racing around a 600mtr track first and second gear maybe 3rd for a few seconds, on and off the throttle hard, in and out of tight corners. well out of the corners f.........cking awesome ,front wheel up and a slight twisted bike just pulling like a devoit at a 2 dollar peep show and not a problem. I JUST LOVE THE BIKE .

Sounds like a real problem bike you have there then

 

[Mr Ford40]

Sounds like a real problem bike you have there then

O'yeah a problem the bike pulls and runs like a dream.

 

[Mr Ford40]

Good stuff.
Just have to get all the oil out of the filter first, wash several times etc, then use it.
Much easier & I had the misfortune of drowning my bike, no toil stayed put & did it's job for the rest of the day.

That new filter I posted to show you that's for the new oil.

 

[bhuizer]

It is better than the extremely substandard factory effort that Husqvarna delivered with the bike flaming out every third time you use the throttle! IT IS FAULTY.

I would not say that the Kiehn dual throttle body system is a “faulty” design. I have a friend with a G450X that runs flawlessly 100% stock, no hard starts, no issues. My bike with the PCV now runs great as well with the stock setup. You could claim the tune is faulty, but not the overall design of the injection system.

I am done too. Sorry for attempting to help people out.

No need to get worked up about this man, everyone is just trying to give their input. Tinken found a fault and doesn't matter what his setup is, it may still be relevant information for someone.

 

[9880sts]

Tinken, it isn't a 'known issue' UNLESS you have a huge free flowing exhaust & as in your case, drastically changed air flow through your cly head. If you are indeed making the 71 hp you claim, that is about a 40% increase by my reckoning, of course you will need more fuel & air! Please don't make statements like this that relate to this type of bike.
For the rest of us mortals with near standard bikes, the mod is fine.

As mentioned in the posts above, nobody snaps a throttle from idle to full throttle!
Don't do the mod if don't want to. Very simple.
Last time I saw, 19 people have tried it on engines that aren't opened up & reported better power delivery! If, as you suggest, the mods don't work, why are they voting it did? Seriously.

As for the possibility of a backfire maybe once a day, or every third ride, if I crack the throttle too hard, I'll take those odds!!!
It is better than the extremely substandard factory effort that Husqvarna delivered with the bike flaming out every third time you use the throttle! IT IS FAULTY.


As for fixing your own backfire on your bike, surely you are clever enough to do that yourself with the PCV, there are plenty of settings in there.

If a 46mm butterfly is to big for a modern bike efi system, how did the exact same engine from the exact same company with bigger cams & more compression cope with a single butterfly??? Very well actually, it made another 4 engine HP.

I am done too. Sorry for attempting to help people out.

maybe you mist some details DM ?
But i am sure someone will bring them up

 

[Dangermouse449]

HERE IS WHY IT WORKS FOR FLAME-OUTS.

Let's assume you are a dirtbike rider with good throttle & clutch control & have ridden bikes for a while now. (most of us)
You ride up to a log/rock ledge/small creek & need to loft the front wheel up and over the obstacle.
You have the knowledge that to do this you'll have to give it some gas & pop the clutch just right,
too much & you will loop-out & flip. Too little and the engine will stall or the front won't clear the obstacle.
With me so far?

Now to an EFI system.
It uses inputs from the sensors to tell what the engine is doing right now & what the operator is asking for.
Throttle Position Sensor, Crank position sensor, some temp sensors etc.
It uses these sensors as a guide to go and look in a set of look-up tables (a map) that someone programmed in there to find a solution to the current set of circumstances.
E.g. - I'm seeing 2400rpm, coolant is 70degC, air is 20degC, throttle has been moved rapidly from 0% to 55%..
Ecu thinks - 'ooks like this guy just cracked the throttle open, and now there's no vaccum, I'll have a look in my collection of maps for an injection pulse & spark advance that works for that'.

So, on to the double flap engine strangler system, or as I like to call it -DFESS!

In the above scenario, you ride up to the log, line up with it, clutch pulled in.
You 'gun' the throttle to 45% & pop the clutch. (Note that this isn't 100% throttle, I've never seen Graham Jarvis go to 100% throttle to pop over a log, I can't either)
The DFESS has been programed on a dyno somewhere, away from logs & rock ledges & creeks, and has been set up to 'smooth' the power delivery at light load & throttle settings and with the clutch already out, no point being on a dyno if the clutch is in.
You gun the throttle to 45% & to bring the revs up & the ECU looks in the maps for a solution, that being to smooth the power as above.
You have the cable operated throttle plate set at 45%, but the ecu only opens the DFESS plate to 10% & opening slowly.
But, YOU go and introduce the clutch. (Now why would you do a crazy thing like that??)

With the load added in, the DFESS is caught with it's pants down, it is maybe making 5 or 10 hp, it needs more air & fuel to make more hp for the load, but the top butterfly isn't open yet, OMG, what can I do? I gotta get the butterfly open, this crazy person has just loaded the engine up and I'm not gonna be able to make power for.....sorry buddy, times up - Cough splutter -Bang, FLAMEOUT!!!

By removing the DFESS butterfly on the standard set-up, when the throttle is swung open, there is air available & the revs rise rapidly (compared to with the plate installed) and adds in the fuel needed for the rpm increase.
It doesn't 'know' that the butterfly is gone.
AND when you introduce load onto the engine, the 45% throttle YOU asked for is actually 45% throttle!
When you pop the clutch out, the engine is already operating at the 45% throttle, not 20% & climbing....
Please don't tell me how it does't work on my bike (along with the other mods in the original post), it IS working on it & working VERY well.

Have a great day everyone.

 

[Dangermouse449]

There is nothing wrong with the original system of two butterflies, the system is not faulty. When tuned properly and by a knowledgeable technician, the system has no issues and quick throttle response. My engine, with only map3 installed and the twin butterflies has just as much throttle response or "quick snap" as my Powercommander tuned TC system. This is because I painstakingly tuned my engine with the proper tools (including a HST and Dyno) and I am knowledgeable to do so. You don't have to hack a system apart, which you know very little about in the first place and blame Husqvarna for something they weren't even the cause of. This is the same exact Keihin system which was placed on the G450X by BMW which worked perfectly through proper tuning and fuel. I know, I have a BMW G450X ecu that I test with. The system is not faulty, it just needs to be tuned properly with the correct timings and amount of fuel.

The major purpose of the secondary butterfly is that of a vacuum secondary. Anyone who has had experience with removing a vacuum secondary off of a carburetor knows that when you punch the throttle open, there will be a lack of initial fuel and a flame out. It is a KNOWN ISSUE. Therefore extra fuel must be added to compensate for the increase in air volume which enters the manifold, usually by way of an accelerator pump. Those who have modified their 449/511's already have electronic fuel modification in place and are reporting positive results. Those who do not have the add-ons will have to modify their TPS, essentially moving the entire map progression backwards to compensate for the lean low throttle position.

I do not know one person who owns a motorcycle who has never snapped their throttle from idle to full before.

I like the idea of not having a secondary butterfly, not for the performance, but for the simplicity. I for one prefer reliability over long walks to civilization which are not in my things to do book. When I removed my secondary butterfly, I had no extra add-on electronics installed, no pcv, no jd tuner, did not readjust my tps, etc. I essentially turned my TBI into a TC version without a choke, and it would not reliably start. The TC ecu has fuel settings which allows it to run properly and coupled with a manual choke on the TBI, creates a highly reliable system. I have been building a new pcv map to give out to help people who have decided to try removing the butterfly and do not have access to a HST. However, I feel it is a better idea to tune with the HST after the removal so that in case of electronic add-on failure, you won't be stranded.



I am growing increasingly tired of having the door slammed in my face when I am trying to help people on this board. I am not just someone who owns one or two of these bikes to work on. I am not a dealer nor some hole in the wall little shop. I am certainly not the deity, as smugly referred to. I work with Ty Davis at ZipTyRacing Inc. ZipTyRacing was the Factory race team with these motorcycles and is now contracted through KTM/Husqvarna for different projects. I do not have the luxury of just packing up and quitting, although I have seriously considered not renewing my contract here at CH. When we introduce a mod, we, as well as most people on these forums are committed and recognize both the positive and negative effects of the particular mod. There are many different variables to work around, different models, different stages of modification, altitudes, or even styles of riding. Everything must be looked at and thoroughly tested and retested. And we work together to find a solution. That's the purpose of this forum.

Ok, the system in principle may not be faulty. The tuning for dead throttles & hanging idles & flame-outs would suggest otherwise.
I think it is just very lucky that no-one had been killed by a flameout on the main road where you could pull out in front of a car/truck expecting power & not get any. Ask Toyota about their run-away throttle lawsuit.
If you had to take your car to a dyno tuner or fit a tuning box after buying it just to drive it around, I think you would agree that it was faulty.

- This is because I painstakingly tuned my engine with the proper tools (including a HST and Dyno) and I am knowledgeable to do so. You don't have to hack a system apart, which you know very little
about in the first place.

I didn't WANT to hack my system apart, as you so eloquently put it, but I did after much prior thought & using the skills gained after 30+ years of exposure to efi systems.
I don't have a dyno, a HST or a piggyback. Please don't assume that I don't have any knowledge either, I have a bit actually, I used what I knew to FIX my bike without the need for these things.

- The major purpose of the secondary butterfly is that of a vacuum secondary. Anyone who has had experience with removing a vacuum secondary off of a carburetor knows that when you punch the throttle open, there will be a lack of initial fuel and a flame out.
- The TC ecu has fuel settings which allows it to run properly and coupled with a manual choke on the TBI

You seem to forget that you do not need air speed to pull fuel out of jets like a carb does.
You have an injector with pressurised fuel, it does not need a vacuum secondary, only an increase in pulse width to add more fuel. I stand by my original comment in the thread that the fbw butterfly serves no purpose other than for emission control. Also, the 'choke' you keep refering to is nothing more that an air bypass, it doesn't choke anything. It simply allows a fast idle, any 'choke' function for adding in fuel is done by the ecu, again with pulse width of the injector.
If, as I have done, you find a sweet spot for the brass idle screw, you do not need anything more to start hot or cold in my climate.

- When we introduce a mod, we, as well as most people on these forums are committed and recognize both the positive and negative effects of the particular mod. There are many different variables to work around, different models, different stages of modification, altitudes, or even styles of riding. Everything must be looked at and thoroughly tested and retested. And we work together to find a solution. That's the purpose of this forum.
- I have been building a new pcv map to give out to help people who have decided to try removing the butterfly and do not have access to a HST.

I accept this wholeheartedly.
What I take exception to is snide remarks & backhand comments designed to wind people up.(like having to come & tune your bike for you)
Don't make it personal, present what you find, talk about it, discuss it, that IS what the forum is for. It isn't the discussions that have the door being slammed in your face, it is the comments.

I am keen to make improvements to these bikes, that is why I posted in the first place.
I like them, quite a bit now actually.

 

[James Patton]

STOP

 

[Dangermouse449]

goodbye.

 

[Thrasher]

COME ON... We're not a bunch of girls... (not that there's anything wrong with that.) I enjoy a good boxing match, a good MMA fight and debates among those who know more than I do. THIS IS GOOD TIMES!!

STOP

WHY?

Here's my two uneducated cents:
"Theories are a nice. Well reasoned theories are impressive. Battling theories are entertaining.
Results are what counts."

 

[Motosportz]

There is nothing wrong with the original system of two butterflies, the system is not faulty.

I am not 100% sure yet but believe it is the reason for the dead throttle issue many of us experience and can be, and is, dangerous. This was the main reason for me removing the BF. There were a few times when I went to cross a log or ditch at speed and there was nothing and it could have ended very badly. Again I need to test more but so far zero dead throttle. This to me is a fault and it seems to be gone now. The FACT that MY bike runs better and is far more consistent is icing on the cake.

The major purpose of the secondary butterfly is that of a vacuum secondary. Anyone who has had experience with removing a vacuum secondary off of a carburetor knows that when you punch the throttle open, there will be a lack of initial fuel and a flame out. It is a KNOWN ISSUE

Thats a good theory for a carb as it works off vacuum and needs to suck fuel from the bowl through various orifices. EFI systems do not operate in this fashion. They measure volume, temps, crank position, throttle position, o2 readings, and several other factors and then use a map based on this info to squire fuel. As I have posted over and over many EFI systems do not have this secondary BF and run great. In fact the huge majority of EFI systems do not.

I like the idea of not having a secondary butterfly, not for the performance, but for the simplicity. I for one prefer reliability over long walks to civilization which are not in my things to do book.

Not sure how this is going to make you walk home? I too ride very remote areas and don't like to chance stuff. My bike runs better and I might not end up in the hospital because the BF chose to not open when I need to which was almost the case a time or two.

I am growing increasingly tired of having the door slammed in my face when I am trying to help people on this board. I am not just someone who owns one or two of these bikes to work on. I am not a dealer nor some hole in the wall little shop. I am certainly not the deity, as smugly referred to. I work with Ty Davis at ZipTyRacing Inc. ZipTyRacing was the Factory race team with these motorcycles and is now contracted through KTM/Husqvarna for different projects. I do not have the luxury of just packing up and quitting, although I have seriously considered not renewing my contract here at CH. When we introduce a mod, we, as well as most people on these forums are committed and recognize both the positive and negative effects of the particular mod. There are many different variables to work around, different models, different stages of modification, altitudes, or even styles of riding. Everything must be looked at and thoroughly tested and retested. And we work together to find a solution. That's the purpose of this forum.

Your wealth of knowledge is much appreciated as has been posted many times. That does not mean someone else might try something that works and wants to post it without being slammed in the face too. I really don't think DM made all this changes, his bike will not start, leaves him stranded and blows up and he hurries on here to claim it is a good mod. The great thing about a forum is we all post our feelings and experiences and we can all learn and use what we choose. 20 people including myself have tried and liked this simple and 100% reversible mod. You have stated your case as has DM, me and others. 20 people have now done this mod and I have not seen a no start or stranded issue yet. Time will tell. Experimentation is good and you have done a ton and help us here. Great. DM tried something, it worked for him and he posted it. Might now work for everyone. You have stated your concerns over and over. For you the mod is not good. Fine don't do it. Why beat the dead horse, cause a rift and cause people to not post? Thats anti productive. We dont want you to leave, we don't want DM to leave, we want all opinions and we, as individuals can pick and choose our mods as we see fit. Why can't we just leave it at that?