74 400 Cross Engine Assembly Help?

[Crashaholic]

I know. I was making a joke. Apparently, not a good one...

I disagree, it was a good joke so don't judge it based on my lack of reaction, its just that on days I don't feel well I don't have much of a sense of humor.

 

[DeathFromAbove]

Joking is Good, I laugh at myself all the time cause I am always screwing up!! Hope all is good with you Crash!!

 

[bul_racer]

Joking is Good, I laugh at myself all the time cause I am always screwing up!! Hope all is good with you Crash!!

Jeez! I thought it was just me...

OK, so I'm attempting to install the driving gear. Put it on & torqued to the specified 40nm (29 Foot Pounds). Didn't trust it so I took the nut back off & this is what it looks like. Is this OK or should it be seated deeper? Should I have heated it before attempting this? It's just 2.6 mm from being flush.

 

[bul_racer]

Jeez! I thought it was just me...

OK, so I'm attempting to install the driving gear. Put it on & torqued to the specified 40nm (29 Foot Pounds). Didn't trust it so I took the nut back off & this is what it looks like. Is this OK or should it be seated deeper? Should I have heated it before attempting this? It's just 2.6 mm from being flush.

So maybe this is just too dumb of a question for anyone to answer. I know, I should have taken pictures when I took it apart but too late for that now. Seems like I'd have noticed it it had looked like this when I first removed the nut.

I removed it & put in the oven at 425 degrees. It may have cooled down a bit by the time I got it back on. Torqued it as much as I could with the engine loose, about 40 foot pounds. Then I backed off the nut and the result was not noticeably different from last time. Gonna try heating it to 500 degrees (or whatever temp it is when my oven says it's 500). If it doesn't go on any farther I guess I'll have to assume that's as far as I'll be able to get it on. I think that it is probably engaged enough to not be a problem in operation but concerned about it trying to come loose.

Which brings me to the next question. I believe there's a nut locking washer to go on the clutch hub so I called John Lefever of Vintage Husky & he said I should not use the locking washer. Instead, he said, I should red loctite to prevent it coming loose. In 50 years of riding dirt bikes I have never before had occasion to use red loctite so I'm hoping some folks here will chime in with their opinions on the subject.

 

[DeathFromAbove]

bul, what are you calling the "Driving Gear"? And how the fu.k are you heating it to 425degrees F!!! Please do NOT heat anything to that temp!! The Drive gear that is attached to the left side of the crankshaft is a taper fit. It drives the clutch drum!! Do you have some pics so we can see what your talking about??

 

[bul_racer]

bul, what are you calling the "Driving Gear"? And how the fu.k are you heating it to 425degrees F!!! Please do NOT heat anything to that temp!! The Drive gear that is attached to the left side of the crankshaft is a taper fit. It drives the clutch drum!! Do you have some pics so we can see what your talking about??

Death,

Thanks for your comments!

Yeah, drive gear. That's what I meant.

I posted the picture in the very post where I mentioned heating the part. Did you not see it? Here it is once more.

I should have known heating wouldn't make that much difference & in fact, it made absolutely no difference. I can't see how it could ever go any more onto the crank than what I've got. Unless some of the experts here say different I'm going to proceed with it as is.

So, you think maybe I damaged the part getting it that hot? I did once have to heat a Honda case this much in order to get the bearings out but usually 200 degrees does the trick.

 

[ct cr430]

So you are talking about the primary gear on the end of the crankshaft that fits onto the crank using a taper fit , right ? And it sounds like you are describing that the gear doesn’t sit flush with the end of the taper closest to the threads for the nut . If the gear was flush with the end of the taper you would NOT be able to get the pressure onto the gear pushing the 2parts of the taper together even tho you may have the correct torque applied to the nut . By having the gear sticking out slightly from the tapered end of the crank you can get the needed torque applied to the taper fit . If the taper slips , it will chew up both the primary gear’s taper and crank’s .

 

[motomwo]

Your pictures are not showing up.

 

[Vinskord]

In 50 years of riding dirt bikes I have never before had occasion to use red loctite so I'm hoping some folks here will chime in with their opinions on the subject.

Everyone has a favorite method to keep assemblies tight. Cams, cranks. gears, clutches, sprockets, etc. have used bend-over tabs (washers) as a very effective way of securing nuts on rotating shafts. Red Loctite works also - keep in mind though what is required to properly remove fasteners after using Red Loctite (see attached pic from Henkel Loctite) - especially after what DFA shared in post #85.

 

[Vinskord]

Some alternative additional info on tightening the clutch springs. Here is a page from Husky Newsletter #12. Keep in mind here also whether to use Red Loctite vs bend-over tabs.

 

[bul_racer]

So you are talking about the primary gear on the end of the crankshaft that fits onto the crank using a taper fit , right ? And it sounds like you are describing that the gear doesn’t sit flush with the end of the taper closest to the threads for the nut . If the gear was flush with the end of the taper you would NOT be able to get the pressure onto the gear pushing the 2parts of the taper together even tho you may have the correct torque applied to the nut . By having the gear sticking out slightly from the tapered end of the crank you can get the needed torque applied to the taper fit . If the taper slips , it will chew up both the primary gear’s taper and crank’s .

CR430, yes, the primary gear. Don't know why I didn't say that. Think I saw something in some manual or other that described it as driving gear. Husky's have me confused on some parts since they have different names than I'm used to.

Anyway, you are correct and I'm talking about the primary gear not fitting flush with the end of the taper. Thank you for explaining it in a way that my feeble mind can understand. This is my first experience with this type of fit so I was unaware of the logic behind it.

Now that I know, it makes sense, though I still don't understand why engineers would choose this fastening method over a keyed fit. This seems like it would be at higher risk of coming loose. I suppose the gearheads that designed it used mathematical formulas having more letters than numbers and they had confidence that it would hold. Still, it seems to me that 40nm/29 ft lbs isn't very much for something so critical.

 

[bul_racer]

Your pictures are not showing up.

Really? They show up for me when I look at the thread. Any ideas of why you can't see the pix or how I can fix it? I think they are .jpg. Maybe I need to use a different format?

 

[ct cr430]

Your very welcome . Sometimes even tho you know what you want to say it doesn’t quite come across as you want . A good taper fit is a very strong bond , think of all the power it has to handle and not break loose . Ignition flywheels are tapered as are some of the old husky countershaft sprockets . As long as it’s not damaged it can be a real pain to remove . I know there are other threads in here in which others are describing thier fustrations and looking for help removing some of these taper fit union (for lack of a better word ). For a flywheel , the keyway only allows to put flywheel back in the same location for timing . And i also can’t see the last picture . Good luck with your build .

 

[bul_racer]

Your very welcome . Sometimes even tho you know what you want to say it doesn’t quite come across as you want . A good taper fit is a very strong bond , think of all the power it has to handle and not break loose . Ignition flywheels are tapered as are some of the old husky countershaft sprockets . As long as it’s not damaged it can be a real pain to remove . I know there are other threads in here in which others are describing thier fustrations and looking for help removing some of these taper fit union (for lack of a better word ). For a flywheel , the keyway only allows to put flywheel back in the same location for timing . And i also can’t see the last picture . Good luck with your build .

Thanks CR430. So it looks like some folks can't see my pictures even though I can see them after I post. I'm using .jpg format. Maybe some can't see .jpg files? Maybe I should be using a different format. What format are others using? Couldn't find anything in the forum Help section. In fact, there isn't much there.

 

[bul_racer]

Some alternative additional info on tightening the clutch springs. Here is a page from Husky Newsletter #12. Keep in mind here also whether to use Red Loctite vs bend-over tabs.

View attachment 104666

Vinskord, I don't understand the comment about dowel pins. In my mind a dowel would be an additional pin. Maybe that's not what they mean. Can't see the picture detail that well so maybe I'm missing something. Seems to me that I'd rather use the bend-over tabs (though it doesn't really sound like such a good thing). I'm just not that keen on heating things up to 500 degrees plus.

 

[ct cr430]

I think what Vinskord is showing is that the ‘dowel pins ‘ are just hollow tubes slid over the clutch studs . Purpose is to give uniform tightness to the clutch springs when you bottom out the clutch adjustment nuts agains the dowels . My 81 430 clutch also uses dowels on the clutch bolts/studs .

 

[Vinskord]

The dowel pins the Husky Newsletter is referring to is a Honda part #94301-08140. I think your right about using the tabs - I'd feel better with them in place, holding the nuts from loosening.

 

[DeathFromAbove]

Too many clutch covers are milled by incorrect adjustments or missing tabs.

 

[Crashaholic]

Some alternative additional info on tightening the clutch springs. Here is a page from Husky Newsletter #12

I'm not sure about this. Using dowel pins as a stopping point for pressure plate nuts on these old clutches goes again factory recommendations. As outlined in the Husky shop manual, some of the springs may require more or less tension in order to insure the pressure plate is even when de-clutched. Why this was not an issue on the later mag clutch is unknown to me.

 

[Crashaholic]

And how the fu.k are you heating it to 425degrees F!!! Please do NOT heat anything to that temp!!

Some of you guys crack me up.