TE511 Front-end washout

[Huskynoobee]

I do also remember a trick from back in the drum brake days...a wider profile front seemed to help in order to have control at lower speeds and improve turn control as well. The larger footprint helped distribute front end weight and let it "float" better.

 

[glangston]

Turning isn't my issue, keeping the bike straight in the sand is. As soon as I hit sand, it turns uncontrollably.

Is it turning LEFT.????

Might blame it on Brown.

 

[Tinken]

Is it turning LEFT.????

Might blame it on Brown.

Hahaha! (it is sadly)

I picked it up from Ty's shop today and I will test it out on Sunday. I have .52 in the front with very tight valving and a special oil (w/e that means). The front forks feel totally different, like they aren't even the same ones. The rear shock has tighter valving and a harder stopper that was used on the factory bikes.

I do run the widest tire I could get in the front, although I was running it at 14 psi and may try lowering the pressure? Ty explained that when accelerating on the 449 platform, that the rear end actually rises instead of squatting like on the Japanese bikes. When the back end rises, the front fork angle increases. This lessens the stability in the sand. I will tweak the settings back and forth as best as I can, then install a steering stabilizer to help keep me going straight.

 

[Alvsey]

Hey mate, I run with an 2011 449, always ride in the sand as I have no choice, we live in the desert. Anyway I weigh approx 91 kg before riding gear (202lbs), I run a Scotts stearing dampner as suggested above, have had my rear shock spring changed to a 6.0 and revalved. Rear ride height lowered as the 2011 had the jacked up backside feeling, heaps better ( if yours is an 2012 then is already fixed) Stock springs in the front forks , revalved. Currently the forks are approx 5mm through the top triple clamp.......Bike tracks fine through the sand, steady as, as long as your on the gas. Front tyre pressure is extremely important, I currently am running around 12-13 psi max. Extra heavy duty tubes either Michelin or Bridgstones, 4mm thick. Adds some weight but far better than getting flats all the time. Have had a crack over the last couple of years at the Finke desert race and currently have never had a flat tyre yet. Luck probably ! The biggest single factor that has given me the confidence to ride flat out through the sand is the stearing dampner, what a difference, fully adjustable, high and low speed. I would have been on my backside so many times if not for the high speed mode kicking in and giving me time to re-act. You just can't save a full bar snatch at speeds over 100kms/h, let alone 165km/h which the bike can pull with the current gearing.

 

[spud1968]

Lower tyre pressure will also create a bigger foot print. 10psi works for me.

 

[Rearwheelin]

Rear sag will play a huge roll on how your bike handles.. The rider sag is most important as this is going to give you tons of input when your bikes suspension is unloaded and the biggest thing to make your bike handle well is having the correct springs IMHO

 

[Tinken]

Rear sag will play a huge roll on how your bike handles.. The rider sag is most important as this is going to give you tons of input with your bikes suspension is unloaded and the biggest thing to make your bike handle well is having the correct springs IMHO

What is the accepted sag for the 449 platform?
I researched my spring rates on Racetech's calculator and I appear to be spot on. Along with having the correct springs, the correct valving/settings is also very important. For example, even having the correct springs, my front fork settings were very low. So when coming up on the sand, my front tire I am digging in, the rear was rising at the same time, rake angle decreased and I lose my stability. Hopefully now that the forks are much stiffer, my stability will be increased.

 

[Alvsey]

JUST LOOKED BACK THROUGH MY BOOK, AFTER ALL THE VALVING CHANGES ETC, I WAS TOLD BY THE SUSPENSION MECHANIC TO GET 30MM STATIC SAG AND 110 RACE SAG

 

[Alvsey]

IF HAVING TROUBLE GETTING YOUR HEAD AROUND THE SPRING RATES, RIDER SAG AND STATIC SAG HEIGHTS ETC ETC, LIKE PROBABLY 90% OF US DO, GOOGLE, SET YOUR RACE SAG, BLACK JACK MX. IT EXPLAINS HOW IT WORKS QUITE SIMPLY AND HOW TO OBTAIN THE CORRECT READINGS

 

[Huskynoobee]

Hey mate, I run with an 2011 449, always ride in the sand as I have no choice, we live in the desert. Anyway I weigh approx 91 kg before riding gear (202lbs), I run a Scotts stearing dampner as suggested above, have had my rear shock spring changed to a 6.0 and revalved. Rear ride height lowered as the 2011 had the jacked up backside feeling, heaps better ( if yours is an 2012 then is already fixed) Stock springs in the front forks , revalved. Currently the forks are approx 5mm through the top triple clamp.......Bike tracks fine through the sand, steady as, as long as your on the gas. Front tyre pressure is extremely important, I currently am running around 12-13 psi max. Extra heavy duty tubes either Michelin or Bridgstones, 4mm thick. Adds some weight but far better than getting flats all the time. Have had a crack over the last couple of years at the Finke desert race and currently have never had a flat tyre yet. Luck probably ! The biggest single factor that has given me the confidence to ride flat out through the sand is the stearing dampner, what a difference, fully adjustable, high and low speed. I would have been on my backside so many times if not for the high speed mode kicking in and giving me time to re-act. You just can't save a full bar snatch at speeds over 100kms/h, let alone 165km/h which the bike can pull with the current gearing.

Ahhh yes. Never go slow and you'll be fine!

 

[Rearwheelin]

What is the accepted sag for the 449 platform?
I researched my spring rates on Racetech's calculator and I appear to be spot on. Along with having the correct springs, the correct valving/settings is also very important. For example, even having the correct springs, my front fork settings were very low. So when coming up on the sand, my front tire I am digging in, the rear was rising at the same time, rake angle decreased and I lose my stability. Hopefully now that the forks are much stiffer, my stability will be increased.

I don't think the CTS causes the tire to dig in or go down as Ty has told you . The 449/511 still has a chain that tugs on the rear sprocket so that has to create rear wheel lift. Our bikes are just missing a pivot point between the rear sprocket and front that allows the back tire to bite more effectivly and not load the suspension "as much"... I seriously doubt our back wheel is being forced down ..lol I think our bikes benefit from a a good 120 mm of sag atleast.

 

[Tinken]

Fixed.

Took it out yesterday before the race and rode the sand in Johnson Valley. I had very little problems with the front washing out. Tried different pressure in the front tire, didn't seem any different. I went form .48 to .52 on the front springs, plus major comp/rebound. Forks all the way down, flush with top of triple clamps. I actually lightened up the rear by 1/4 turn on the compression, but it is dead on, 6.3. 511 handles like a totally different bike now. I think the sag is at 110mm and putting it down another ten will definitely help. No problem turning, turns on a dime (changing to a 120 rear huge help). I rode for 3-4 hours in rocks and sand, but to do it at any real speed, I am going to need a steering damper, it's just safer.

Big thank you to Ty Davis @ Zip-ty racing for suspension work, fixing, fixing and fixing... And for everyone who offered input, hopefully this helps others as well.

 

[spud1968]

Them steering dampers sound like a good idea my own 449 2011 is twitchy on hard pack. Ive tried the 4mm lowering the rear not for me the steeeing became to slow in woods.

 

[Rearwheelin]

Right on glad it's going well ! Set up is key for a happy ride mine seems to do well on everything but steep down hills and I think stiffer fork springs and a good rear sag with a stiffer rear spring will help but am fairlly happy over all.

 

[Tinken]

The race yesterday had this really steep drop off that was about 90 feet high and half way down you had to turn sharply to zig zag once and then go down again. Many of the pro's fell over and had a hard time with it. My 511 went down with no problems, but I will tell ya, the stiffer front springs/compression made it a lot easier. I purposely dove the front end into the whoops hard to get them to bottom and couldn't, though I could get it close. I could only bottom the rear if I leveraged over the fuel cap, but then I was only barely hitting the stopper. The harder racing stopper is slightly shorter than stock which gives you a little more travel, but isn't hard enough to remind me of the pins in my back.

 

[spud1968]

Tinken, this might be a silly question; how do you know how much your rear suspension was moving by?

 

[Tinken]

Tinken, this might be a silly question; how do you know how much your rear suspension was moving by?

Not silly at all, I use the old zip-tie method on the front shocks and I toss dust on the rear (yea, I know, real good for the seals huh). In my particular case for the rear, I can feel when I hit the stopper and how hard.

 

[Daniel508s]

What would cause the front end on the te511 to wash out in sand? The bike performs beautifully on all other surfaces except for deep sand. I have been thinking it's a geometry issue? I have owned tons of motorcycles and love riding in the dunes. I have never had a problem like this before.

Suspension. Your forks and rear shock aren't in sync.

 

[fire1998]

Had my suspension done by ZipTy also. Rear end is awesome but forks are to soft. When they bottom its a hard clank. It does it often ! I know its hard to get a supple front end but my revalved 03 Honda CR250 has both. Never felt front end bottom hard and it still works great on smaller bumps, rocks,etc.... Ty left stock springs in for my weight (195) but revalved them. Plan on calling them and see what we can do. Havn't ridden bike in sand so I cant help ya there.

 

[Tinken]

Had my suspension done by ZipTy also. Rear end is awesome but forks are to soft. When they bottom its a hard clank. It does it often ! I know its hard to get a supple front end but my revalved 03 Honda CR250 has both. Never felt front end bottom hard and it still works great on smaller bumps, rocks,etc.... Ty left stock springs in for my weight (195) but revalved them. Plan on calling them and see what we can do. Havn't ridden bike in sand so I cant help ya there.

Stock springs on your forks are right for your weight, in fact, the stock rear spring is also right. Turn your compression adjustment in on your forks. You have the TXC449 right? That would be the top adjustment, turn clockwise.

I added Flexx bars today, should help take out some of the hard hits and minimize vibration.