What is your Spoofer Plug experience?

[Riding Again]

Very interested in Vforcejohn's post. Did not realize the big bore kits out there. He has the means and experience to back all of it up too. his idea of a 730cc build would change this bike quickly. The snow mobile rotax motors that are used see great improvements with the 830cc Big Bore kit. I think I seen some where they are getting close to 100hp with it. This bike with 100hp would make a world of difference on the road.

As far as the brisk plugs I used the ones with out the ground and do not recommend using them. I am not an expert but could definitely hear a difference in the bottom end almost like spark knock, almost like the timing was advanced too much.

 

[drzcharlie]

I'm posting this for Roger04RT as he is having problems accessing the forum right now and he asked me to post for him.

Wow, I didn't know you owned a TR650 Husky. How do you like it?

I believe you know that I don't own a TR650 but TRZ_Charlie who's become a good friend, does. My comments are informed by my work with him on his bike.

If your theory on adaption held any water, these bikes (or any mapped efi) could not run in a cold climate. The temperature would always be telling the ecu to read off the cold mapping and add fuel as needed, but your assumption is that the ecu would adapt that out. Hmm, very interesting. In plain English, are trying to have us believe the AIT is irrelevant to the function of the bike?

This really isn't my theory of operation, it's how Bosch (and others) explains the operation of the ECUs they build, which is also consistent with many other ECUs. Because so many BMW riders did not have a clear picture of how Mixture Adaptation worked (and many like you doubted it) I decided to set up a series of tests and measurements to prove or disprove the written documentation I had. The link to those tests is below.

Your specific comment about Mixture Adaptation and the temperature sensor somehow being at odds with each other isn't right. The Temp sensor, Barometric pressure sensor and battery voltage are key to short and long term fueling. Here a couple examples:

--You're cruising along and temperature, pressure and voltage are all stable. The the O2 sensor and Mixture Adaptation have brought the Short Term and the Long Term trims into line and the cruise mixture is 14.7:1. Now something happens to the actual air temperature (e.g. quick ride into the mountains, or you stop at a traffic light and hot air is drawn in off the engine). Without an air temp sensor, the Short Term adaptive trims would have to all change to cope with the temperature change--this takes time. By having an Air Temp sensor, it signals the warmer or colder air and the ECU and O2 sensor can hold 14.7:1 without having to adjust the Short or Long Term trims other than to compensate for linearity errors of the Temp sensor.

--The temperature sensor is also helpful during cold starting when the bike is not operating in Closed Loop. It and the Engine Temp sensor help the ECU calculate a start-up and warm-up enrichment factor.

I have not seen any empirical data or test to support your hypothesis.

Link to detailed Mixture Adaptation measurements: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23675190&postcount=800​

 

[Mark_H]

I'm posting this for Roger04RT as he is having problems accessing the forum right now and he asked me to post for him.

​

​

I believe you know that I don't own a TR650 but TRZ_Charlie who's become a good friend, does. My comments are informed by my work with him on his bike.​

​

​

​

This really isn't my theory of operation, it's how Bosch (and others) explains the operation of the ECUs they build, which is also consistent with many other ECUs. Because so many BMW riders did not have a clear picture of how Mixture Adaptation worked (and many like you doubted it) I decided to set up a series of tests and measurements to prove or disprove the written documentation I had. The link to those tests is below.​

​

Your specific comment about Mixture Adaptation and the temperature sensor somehow being at odds with each other isn't right. The Temp sensor, Barometric pressure sensor and battery voltage are key to short and long term fueling. Here a couple examples:​

​

--You're cruising along and temperature, pressure and voltage are all stable. The the O2 sensor and Mixture Adaptation have brought the Short Term and the Long Term trims into line and the cruise mixture is 14.7:1. Now something happens to the actual air temperature (e.g. quick ride into the mountains, or you stop at a traffic light and hot air is drawn in off the engine). Without an air temp sensor, the Short Term adaptive trims would have to all change to cope with the temperature change--this takes time. By having an Air Temp sensor, it signals the warmer or colder air and the ECU and O2 sensor can hold 14.7:1 without having to adjust the Short or Long Term trims other than to compensate for linearity errors of the Temp sensor.​

​

--The temperature sensor is also helpful during cold starting when the bike is not operating in Closed Loop. It and the Engine Temp sensor help the ECU calculate a start-up and warm-up enrichment factor.​

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​

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Link to detailed Mixture Adaptation measurements: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23675190&postcount=800​

Many thanks Charlie.

As far as I am concerned Roger 'wrote the book' and has 'got the T-Shirt' when it comes to knowledge of ECUs and the Mixture Adaptation process.
I have followed all his posts and firmly believe that without 'closing the loop' and dealing with the O2 sensor feedback which eventually negates the AIT Spoofer false input, there is no point in fitting only one AIT spoofer.
So far I have fitted an O2 spacer and performed the De-Cat, but nothing else as far as ECU 'tuning' mods, yet I have achieved a positive and apparently long term improvement.
I still have 'stumble' issues between 1900 and 2300 rpm, but other than that my bike runs very well and as I have rarely exceeded 5000 rpm recently I have not experienced any 'rich' running and have almost totally clean exhausts and good fuel consumption.
I am still 'sitting on the fence' as far as purchase and fitment of some form of Electronic AFR Adaptor, but I do see the need to have one as Roger has so well demonstrated.

 

[Johnn]

I'm confused by the temperature sensor.
I had a lovely twilight ride with the temp gauge showing 28 - 30 C. On the way home I stopped off for some take-away.

When I restarted the bike the temp gauge was indicating 34 C. It was still 33.5C when I arrived home after 3 Kilometres. The air temperature, according to my face, was about the temp when I stopped at 27 C.
The temperature seemed to be measuring the air around my left leg and not the air going into the air box.
The temperature gauge on my car shows the air temperature drop back to normal within a minute after restarting. I do not normally have the temp showing on the gauge so I cannot say if it is normal or not. (scrolling through the menu is next to impossible with gloves on, even thin mountain bike gloves)

The effectiveness of the Wukka and the booster plug may be where the additional sensor is located. I had mine mounted the Big Dog method , not in the air box but on the leading edge of the left hand side front panel as suggested by Wukka King.

I've just taken out my Wukka King as I had a stumble while merging withe traffic at 80 klm hr. I also was having issues with non starting on the cold setting. It was running very well on the hotter setting but the 80kmh stumble was scary. It's been hot and humid this summer which seems to confirm there are issues with the Wukka King when it gets steamy.

Trying the AF-XIED. Still on my first tank of fuel, so is still adjusting, but after 200 klms it is getting better.

 

[Riding Again]

The air temperature sensor does run a few degrees hotter than ambient air. I believe the sensor is located in the left side of the air box near the throttle body. As the bike gets hotter the sensor stays a little warmer due to this. This is just my observation.

 

[Ogre_fl]

What you experienced is pretty typical of what I have seen in hot weather running stock.
If I stop for a short while with the engine off, like at a fuel stop, the temp shown will have rose up considerably from the outside air when I restart.
The bikes temp sensor is in the air box right over the engine & exhaust.
I have assumed the airbox simply heated up while sitting from the hot engine/exhaust.
It would typically take about 5 miles or 8 Kilometers before it got back close to what I thought the outside air temp was or what it was reading before the stop.

In cooler weather with the Wuka plug this phenomenon is much less noticeable and the temp normalizes much faster.
I do believe it is because of the external temp probe that I have located up near the steering stem.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I'm confused by the temperature sensor.
I had a lovely twilight ride with the temp gauge showing 28 - 30 C. On the way home I stopped off for some take-away.

When I restarted the bike the temp gauge was indicating 34 C. It was still 33.5C when I arrived home after 3 Kilometres. The air temperature, according to my face, was about the temp when I stopped at 27 C.
The temperature seemed to be measuring the air around my left leg and not the air going into the air box.
The temperature gauge on my car shows the air temperature drop back to normal within a minute after restarting. I do not normally have the temp showing on the gauge so I cannot say if it is normal or not. (scrolling through the menu is next to impossible with gloves on, even thin mountain bike gloves)

The effectiveness of the Wukka and the booster plug may be where the additional sensor is located. I had mine mounted the Big Dog method , not in the air box but on the leading edge of the left hand side front panel as suggested by Wukka King.

I've just taken out my Wukka King as I had a stumble while merging withe traffic at 80 klm hr. I also was having issues with non starting on the cold setting. It was running very well on the hotter setting but the 80kmh stumble was scary. It's been hot and humid this summer which seems to confirm there are issues with the Wukka King when it gets steamy.

Trying the AF-XIED. Still on my first tank of fuel, so is still adjusting, but after 200 klms it is getting better.

If you're on setting 7, try setting 8 and then after a tank, setting 9. Many reports now suggest 8 or 9 is best for the TR650.

 

[nev..]

I'm confused by the temperature sensor.
I had a lovely twilight ride with the temp gauge showing 28 - 30 C. On the way home I stopped off for some take-away.

When I restarted the bike the temp gauge was indicating 34 C. It was still 33.5C when I arrived home after 3 Kilometres. The air temperature, according to my face, was about the temp when I stopped at 27 C.
The temperature seemed to be measuring the air around my left leg and not the air going into the air box.
The temperature gauge on my car shows the air temperature drop back to normal within a minute after restarting. I do not normally have the temp showing on the gauge so I cannot say if it is normal or not. (scrolling through the menu is next to impossible with gloves on, even thin mountain bike gloves)

The temperature showing on the dash is the ambient temperature inside the airbox. The AIT is located at the rear of the airbox. The engine is located directly below the airbox. It is quite normal for the temperature on the dash to show a few degrees warmer than the ambient temperature and for it to remain this way. Is the air temperature sensor on your car solely for the engine use, or is it just so you know what its like outside while you sit inside your airconditioned coccoon? If it's just for information, it is probably somewhere which will get direct airflow cooling as soon as the car starts moving. It might even be in the cold air induction system above the engine, but get a lot of ambient air moving past it when the car starts moving.
The TR650 airbox is in very close proximity to the engine so the airbox itself, and probably even the components of the sensor will warm up very quickly when the bike is stationary and heat from the engine is radiating up onto the airbox. It is quite feasible that this takes some time to reduce in temperature even after the bike starts moving again, because the exterior of the airbox is shielded from direct airflow and the circuitous route the air must take from the inlet on the front right, through the filter, and over the hump in the airbox probably means that it is moving quite slowly and not providing much cooling for the interior of the airbox.

 

[mag00]

I'm posting this for Roger04RT as he is having problems accessing the forum right now and he asked me to post for him.

​

​

I believe you know that I don't own a TR650 but TRZ_Charlie who's become a good friend, does. My comments are informed by my work with him on his bike.​

​

​

​

This really isn't my theory of operation, it's how Bosch (and others) explains the operation of the ECUs they build, which is also consistent with many other ECUs. Because so many BMW riders did not have a clear picture of how Mixture Adaptation worked (and many like you doubted it) I decided to set up a series of tests and measurements to prove or disprove the written documentation I had. The link to those tests is below.​

​

Your specific comment about Mixture Adaptation and the temperature sensor somehow being at odds with each other isn't right. The Temp sensor, Barometric pressure sensor and battery voltage are key to short and long term fueling. Here a couple examples:​

​

--You're cruising along and temperature, pressure and voltage are all stable. The the O2 sensor and Mixture Adaptation have brought the Short Term and the Long Term trims into line and the cruise mixture is 14.7:1. Now something happens to the actual air temperature (e.g. quick ride into the mountains, or you stop at a traffic light and hot air is drawn in off the engine). Without an air temp sensor, the Short Term adaptive trims would have to all change to cope with the temperature change--this takes time. By having an Air Temp sensor, it signals the warmer or colder air and the ECU and O2 sensor can hold 14.7:1 without having to adjust the Short or Long Term trims other than to compensate for linearity errors of the Temp sensor.​

​

--The temperature sensor is also helpful during cold starting when the bike is not operating in Closed Loop. It and the Engine Temp sensor help the ECU calculate a start-up and warm-up enrichment factor.​

​

​

​

Link to detailed Mixture Adaptation measurements: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23675190&postcount=800​

I'll probably sound like a broken record, but none of the tests are done on the TR650. Roger does not own or use a TR650 to test on, so data is irrelevant for the most part when troubleshooting a TR650 issue. Some fundamentals will hold true, but mixing them with fiction does not make the fiction true.

And the test methods are archaic as well. Cave man holds computer to sun and declares it does not work. I have asked for someone to test the afxied with O scope, with readings before and aft of the afxied installation, I was scoffed at. I have asked for dyno runs, pretty much the same story.

The AIT spoof does not adapt out. I have not seen any reliable, quantifiable tests to show it does. The survey is guesswork, and while the spoofer may not have "fixed" the issue, does not mean it is not changing the air temp and affecting the computer algorithms.

So, in theory, just remove the ait and let it adapt out. LOL.

It's more plausible that the afxied or non narrow band input to the ecu is frying engines. When the engine cannot decipher a clean signal, it is bouncing in and out of default, and in the process changing the ignition timing map and creating pre-detonation pinging. Yes, there is an ignition map on these bikes, and that adjusts using varied inputs from sensors. For all we know about the MM ecu, it can use a fuel consumption input to make long term trims. Our bikes seem to understand when a higher grade fuel is used and then adjusts the timing. If the O2 is spoofing out what is reality and adjusting the timing incorrectly, whala, blown engine, ask Quirky. And there is no definitive reason why his engine blew up, but he for sure was running an O2 spoof.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I'll probably sound like a broken record, but none of the tests are done on the TR650. Roger does not own or use a TR650 to test on, so data is irrelevant for the most part when troubleshooting a TR650 issue. Some fundamentals will hold true, but mixing them with fiction does not make the fiction true.

And the test methods are archaic as well. Cave man holds computer to sun and declares it does not work. I have asked for someone to test the afxied with O scope, with readings before and aft of the afxied installation, I was scoffed at. I have asked for dyno runs, pretty much the same story.

The AIT spoof does not adapt out. I have not seen any reliable, quantifiable tests to show it does. The survey is guesswork, and while the spoofer may not have "fixed" the issue, does not mean it is not changing the air temp and affecting the computer algorithms.

So, in theory, just remove the ait and let it adapt out. LOL.

It's more plausible that the afxied or non narrow band input to the ecu is frying engines. When the engine cannot decipher a clean signal, it is bouncing in and out of default, and in the process changing the ignition timing map and creating pre-detonation pinging. Yes, there is an ignition map on these bikes, and that adjusts using varied inputs from sensors. For all we know about the MM ecu, it can use a fuel consumption input to make long term trims. Our bikes seem to understand when a higher grade fuel is used and then adjusts the timing. If the O2 is spoofing out what is reality and adjusting the timing incorrectly, whala, blown engine, ask Quirky. And there is no definitive reason why his engine blew up, but he for sure was running an O2 spoof.

Hmmm ...

The simple reason why Techlusion and PowerCommander disconnect the O2 sensor is that all fueling additions are canceled by Mixture Adaptation. Fueling additions include: injection pulse stretchers like Techlusion and PowerCommander, fuel pressure increases, injector size increases and yes, IAT temperature shifters. One needs to understand that in order to have an intelligent voice in this conversation.

 

[drzcharlie]

Dave, why haven't you run a dyno and oscilloscope tests? You aren't a cave man are you? Have you ever heard anymore about when, and, if the 911 device will be ready to use on the TR?

We all know that there isn't a proper fix yet right? but, blowing an engine from spoofing the o2 sensor? come on, that's just hard to believe. Now, if you were to tell me that doing the spoof my lead to loading the piston with carbon I would be more inclined to buy into that theory.

Since you seem to disbelieve each fix, what is your fix? What are you doing to your TR to make the ride tolerable other than Brisk Plugs?

 

[Mark_H]

The air temperature sensor does run a few degrees hotter than ambient air. I believe the sensor is located in the left side of the air box near the throttle body. As the bike gets hotter the sensor stays a little warmer due to this. This is just my observation.

A few degrees ??
I have just run some tests and IMHO the position of the AIT is yet another design fault of this bike.

Ambient Air Temp reading before starting the bike = 30.5C
Air Temp reading with engine running, steadily climbs to 40.0C
Air temp when the Cooling Fan cuts in rises to 45.0C

The sensor is in the airbox, but it's external fittings are in direct flow of the hot air from the fan and thus it reads, in my case 14.5 degrees C too high.
This IMHO is one of the real causes of the Lean Stumble and cr*p hot running of my engine.
Air entering is up to 15 degrees C lower than actual, but the ECU thinks the air is 45C and leans out the engine accordingly. The O2 sensor feedback will eventually tell the ECU different and then it will hopefully trim back accordingly, but this takes time and that is the stage when I get the worst stumbles.

Next idea - Move the AIT so it is in natural airflow and reads somewhere near the truth and then see how the dog runs then.

 

[mag00]

Dave, why haven't you run a dyno and oscilloscope tests? You aren't a cave man are you? Have you ever heard anymore about when, and, if the 911 device will be ready to use on the TR?

We all know that there isn't a proper fix yet right? but, blowing an engine from spoofing the o2 sensor? come on, that's just hard to believe. Now, if you were to tell me that doing the spoof my lead to loading the piston with carbon I would be more inclined to buy into that theory.

Since you seem to disbelieve each fix, what is your fix? What are you doing to your TR to make the ride tolerable other than Brisk Plugs?

That's kind of funny Charlie. My bike is far more than tolerable, it runs great! I had it up Reddington on Monday and pushed my skill level a bit. It's still a bit heavy for me, and surely won't go where my DR200 will go.

It didn't start out great. It stumbled and died and dropped, it stumbled and died and almost got me killed turning on the street, it regularly stumbled and died at stop lights. It had a flat spot at 3k, it couldn't jump a speed bump by cracking the throttle to get the nose up and let the back launch. Rather it would stumble and send me over the bars. Also shifting from 1st - 2nd was pretty bad.

I had it mossed, which helped the off idle stumble significantly, but not completely.

I put my single can on and noticed much better/smother throttle. Rolling off the throttle wasn't so drastic any longer. I could roll on the throttle and power up fairly decent, but it still had the flat spot.

I did the pod mod, no significant changes, just more intake growl. Maybe easier higher RPM range, which I tend to stay out of.

Then maybe you remember me talking about indexing the plugs. Getting the spark to hit the mix at the best possible angle etc. Then I ran across the Brisk multispark, and figured I'd give it a go. And that was the money maker. That fixed both off idle and bogging at 3k, and added more power and better economy.

If I could do only one fix, that is the one. Don't know if there will be much or how much it improves a stock bike, but with mine, I am no longer searching for a fix, don't need it.

I would think the EJK and PC5 should be OK. And now the EJK is tuned for the TR650.

 

[Mark_H]

Further to that...

Whilst fiddling about with engine stopped, checking oil levels etc I was shocked when I switched the Ignition back on.
The Heat Soak had now cuased the AIT reading to go up to an incredible 51C
So...I can deduce that my AIT is reading false high at just about all the time the engine is running.

A reading of 20C over actual is cause for concern and I need to sort it asap.

 

[drzcharlie]

Thanks for the comprehensive answer Dave.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

A good set of plugs is all that's needed. I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. I guess that lean blip on TRZ_Charlie and big-t's posts would disappear too ...

 

[mag00]

I forgot to mention in the previous post about making an eruption and running it on the dyno, showing a small HP gain, but not totally eliminating the issues.

I bought a Wuka, and it was similar, with one exception, I wanted to see the difference between the hot and cold positions, so I switched it apparently too much in the ride, and the bike started to run like total crap. Seems the ecu decided I had a defective AIT and went to default for awhile.

I also hooked up a Lexx fueller (EJK branded by Lexx) On the Lexx, I had to get adapter plugs to hook it to the injector, as the Lexx was made for a Raptor. I ran it in the garage, but never hit the road. I was basically just making sure it would function on the TR650, before I hooked it up and spent money on the dyno.


Then my Pod Mod is slightly different from most others as well. I didn't want a flexible silicon elbow, and with some sanding/grinding I used the ABS elbow from a drain trap. I liked the way it was shaped for flow, not a harsh 90º, plus it was rigid and not susceptible to intake pulses and harmonics. It also affixes the the TB differently. Since my elbow ID is the same as the TB ID, I don't have that step where the silicon 90º attatches.


My single can came from a Raptor 700 as well as the Lexx. I had previously spec'd performance of the raptor for the choice in the silencer. It is a factory designed single can for a big bore EFI engine, so I figured the flow had to be good. Unfortunately the stock baffle/spark arrestor (off road legal can) was a bit restrictive, so I made a slightly larger baffle/spark arrestor for it. First dyno run shows a horsepower and torque gain when removing the baffle. I did not do a dyno bone stock.

I had to make up a custom midpipe. I used old headers that had mandrel bent tubes, I think about a 3.5 radius. I contacted some benders in Calif to make SS midpipes, and to get the price to $80 I would have had to buy 50 pcs. That wasn't going to happen.

The midpipe was 1/8" larger diameter than the stock "y" midpipe. This worked out well. Since dropping one leg of the exhaust, I felt it better to increase the diameter as soon as possible to the single can. Considerable thought went into that, as the formulas for tubing size HP and compression ratios indicated that the larger diameter was not needed. I think initially in stock form I may have taken a small HP hit. Even so, the refinement seemed to be welcome.

With a decent intake and exhaust, adding the Brisk seems to have brought it all together. I feel confident that if I were to want a significant horsepower change, adding the Lexx would be quite favorable on the power end, but still hit the MPG's. But that is where a disengage switch could be added, and I could run as I am now, but when I want power (g650x style), flip a switch that disconnects the o2 and engages the Lexx (EJK)

 

[duibhceK]

Then my Pod Mod is slightly different from most others as well. I didn't want a flexible silicon elbow, and with some sanding/grinding I used the ABS elbow from a drain trap. I liked the way it was shaped for flow, not a harsh 90º, plus it was rigid and not susceptible to intake pulses and harmonics. It also affixes the the TB differently. Since my elbow ID is the same as the TB ID, I don't have that step where the silicon 90º attatches.

Did you post up pics of that setup that I have missed somewhere?

 

[mag00]

Did you post up pics of that setup that I have missed somewhere?

Yep, the one shown is my first try, I did a second one leaving the female flange and adding a short section of pipe for the Uni to fit onto. Takes a bit more grinding to make it fit due to the inflexible connection, but it can be made to work with lots of fussing.

In the pic of the rubber grommet installed, you can see how that grommet is smoothing the air into the TB. In many discussions, there is talk of the turbulence of air and how the airbox smoothes it out, but it is that donut that does the job for the most part.

With the uni and the ABS elbow, you get more of a velocity stack operation. If you just go to the store and look at the trap drain elbow, you can see how radically different it is internally compared to a plain 90º elbow.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/how-to-change-the-tr650-air-filter.40519/#post-393887

Dyno charts there as well.

 

[duibhceK]

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/how-to-change-the-tr650-air-filter.40519/#post-393887

Thanks, I had read that post. It just took me until reading your post above before I realized your elbow ID was the same as the TB ID. I'm slow like that